enigma9051 Senior Member Joined: 22 Sep 2011 Posts: 7 Location: Indiana Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011, 6:45pm Subject: La Pavoni newbie
Arrrrrggggghhhhhhhhh.
Hate. I mean H. A. T. E. Who is the insidious scoundrel who invented this contraption? This device was created in the depths of the tenth circle.
OK, just tried a brand new bag of Sams Best Espresso. In a word, don't. No cremina at any grind or tamp. Went back to my local coffee house coffee. Much better. Although it's a few months old, I still like it's flavor. Like wine or cheese, right? Ok, need to buy new coffee every once in a while. Noted.
La Pavoni Euro Millennium. Rocky grinder. Getting lots of froth. Lots. Gobs of froth. Whole pitcher full of froth. (Bought a single hole tip and it's much better). Still, too much forth. Doesn't pour out when filling cup. Need to spoon. Sigh.
Cremina good, when the lever pulls like there's two hundred pounds of force on it. When I lessen the grind (go from 8 to 10) it pulls easier but not as much cremina and taste is off. Actually it tasted like rhinoceros nasal mucus; and we all know what that tastes like right?
Sooooo, question is (if your still reading) how hard of pull is needed on a good shot of espresso with the La Pavoni lever?
What's been your experience? 1-No sweat, 2-easy, 3-grunt, 4-snort (either end), 5-the Arnold Schwarzenegger, full body press (what I did tonight, but tasted good as a Mocha). PS - DON"T take the basket off quickly after one of these pulls. Justtttttt trust me on this one.
But at least I got a Mocha and it only took a 1/2 hour of trying, with a little encouragement from the wife. (At least I *think* it was encouragement. Hard to tell though all that laughter.) Sigh.
yakster Senior Member Joined: 25 Feb 2009 Posts: 1,006 Location: San Jose, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Factory / La Peppina... Grinder: Vario / Kyocera Vac Pot: Yama 8 + Pyrex Lox-in Rod Drip: Brazen / Kalita / Chemex /... Roaster: Behmor
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011, 8:00pm Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
I've got a Gaggia Factory which is equivalent to the La Pavoni Millennium in a Tin Man hat.
Hmm, how hard to pull? I'd say maybe a 2.5 on your scale of easy to Arnold. A friend explained it to me that you should apply about as much pressure as you'd use on an AeroPress... don't know if this will help you or not.
For me, I lock in the portafilter after filling it with about 14 - 16 grams of coffee ground pretty fine and tamped about 30 pounds, lift the lever and let the group fill for about 10 seconds with water and pre-infuse the puck before beginning the pull. Some will tell you to not lock in the portafilter until you've almost lifted the lever all the way to prevent disturbing the puck, but I usually forget this tip.
I pull down the lever while holding the portafilter handle and look at the flow.
One thing that really helps me is a temp strip on my group that can be picked up from Orphan Espresso to make sure that your temp is right. You can put your portafilter in a water/ice bath to lower the group temp to extend your espresso fun or even use a cool, damp rag to cool the group.
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011, 8:04pm Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
I am using Olympia Cremina manual lever and it should probably be very similar to your pavoni. I would say it's between 3-4. Not too much but not too little too. That's where I get my best shots so far. Pulled too hard and I get little to no crema, weaker body. It's counterintuitive but that's how it is for me. Strength could be relative and different from one to one though. So start with a fair amount of pull, then slowly ease up, the goal is to maintain a steady stream of coffee.
Also, a few months old coffee is too old to get good crema(if any) and flavors. Pavoni is not easy but it's not hard if you have the right fresh coffee, along with more practice. Without fresh coffee(<2 weeks post roast), it's really hard to get it right. Hang on there!
To get fresh coffee, you can get 5lb roast-to-order mail coffee on the internet and freeze them in seal tight mason jars. Leave a small portion out at a time for use. Just defrost a few hours prior whenever you run out of the coffee. Works great for me every time and good price too.
enigma9051 Senior Member Joined: 22 Sep 2011 Posts: 7 Location: Indiana Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011, 10:16am Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
yakster Said:
Hmm, how hard to pull? I'd say maybe a 2.5 on your scale of easy to Arnold. A friend explained it to me that you should apply about as much pressure as you'd use on an AeroPress... don't know if this will help you or not.
Actually I never heard of an AeroPress, so I looked it up and here's what I found:
"Gently press down about a quarter of an inch and maintain that pressure for about 20 to 30 seconds until the plunger bottoms on the coffee. Gentle pressure is the key to easy AeroPressing."
Sounds easy enough. Will try on next espresso. Thanks.
enigma9051 Senior Member Joined: 22 Sep 2011 Posts: 7 Location: Indiana Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011, 11:04am Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
samuellaw178 Said:
I am using Olympia Cremina manual lever and it should probably be very similar to your pavoni. I would say it's between 3-4. Not too much but not too little too. That's where I get my best shots so far. Pulled too hard and I get little to no crema, weaker body. It's counterintuitive but that's how it is for me. Strength could be relative and different from one to one though. So start with a fair amount of pull, then slowly ease up, the goal is to maintain a steady stream of coffee.
After reading your remarks and those of yakster, have no doubt I was pulling too hard and fast.
samuellaw178 Said:
Also, a few months old coffee is too old to get good crema(if any) and flavors. Pavoni is not easy but it's not hard if you have the right fresh coffee, along with more practice. Without fresh coffee(<2 weeks post roast), it's really hard to get it right. Hang on there!
Fresh coffee is probably where I'm failing now. Will take a trip up town and get fresh roasted. Current crop is a couple of months old. Ok, mayby more, I'm cheap (stuff's expensive).
samuellaw178 Said:
To get fresh coffee, you can get 5lb roast-to-order mail coffee on the Internet and freeze them in seal tight mason jars. Leave a small portion out at a time for use. Just defrost a few hours prior whenever you run out of the coffee. Works great for me every time and good price too.
Thanks for the tip. Got me thinking, wonder if I could just use freezer bags and keep coffee longer.
Thanks to you and yakster, I have a better understanding as to what the pull should be. Was pulling for all I was worth. Tried a new pull pulling gently. Much better. Didn't taste too bad either. Coffee is old, but did get a nice layer of crema.
Wish the machine had a gage on it showing how many bars one was pulling during a shot. Would make it much easier to gauge.
Got a 50 lb postal scale and measured how much 30 pounds was with the tamper. Surprisingly it was much more than I was using. Could not easily get 30 # holding tamper the way I was (by side) had to push down from top. Surprising as to how much 30# really is. I was using around 15#.
My next fear is some clown coming up and bragging about how much bigger his portafiler is over my La Pavoni ......... (wife giggling) "Hey, mine's a 58mm!" "Hah, mine's a 61mm." "Big deal, mine's a T61 - brass!!!" I'm over here going, "Mine's 51mm" (quiet, meak little voice.) (Upgrade fever already?)
Posted Wed Oct 26, 2011, 5:19am Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
I'm speaking for myself here but I have always had more success with levers using little or no tamp. With a good quality tamper rest it on top and polish off..
Grind fine, no tamp is how the I discovered happiness with my first Pavoni. Same applies with my Elektra leva and the Europa. The Semi needs a hard tamp strangely enough.
Plus, unless you use a mechanical tamper the result is rarely the same. No tamp and it's one less variable you have to worry about.
I love Pavonis. They're like a primitive little industrial robot with an Italian temper.
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,613 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Wed Oct 26, 2011, 6:59am Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
What can I say? You'll need to practice, practice, practice... And when your finished practicing, practice some more.
There's a reason why nowadays lever machines are more or less exclusively for home use: Making coffee with such a machine is like a work of art, because it takes a lot of expertise and strength to get the brewing pressure right. However, those machines are not suited for continuous use, because the brewgroup tends to overheat after a few shots. This temperature instability can make it difficult to pull shots of consistent quality. Each espresso might taste (at least a little) differently, and after a few shots it might even get burnt and bitter.
The efford is, however, worth it. Once you've mastered your La Pavoni, you'll get great results.
Unfortunately the Rocky is not the best grinder for espresso, because its steps are too wide, so that you can be stuck in between two steps for proper extraction which can be highly frustrating. The good thing is that lever machines are usually more forgiving when it comes to the right fineness of the grounds.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
uyeasound Senior Member Joined: 27 Oct 2011 Posts: 8 Location: Shetland Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011, 12:59pm Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
Stick with it. It gets easier. I agree about buying a temp strip. Wrong temperature and it's a non starter. It's also true that there are many ways of making great espresso with La Pavoni. When i pull a shot, it takes not much more than hand weight... There's no right or wrong. For what it's worth, here's one way that works. It might not be the best, but it works...
Begin by letting the machine reach its target temperature/pressure, discerned by the delumination of the green light. Vent dry steam into a cup. Allow the heating element to work and shut off again a couple of times. Pull a shot of water to clean the system through, and use the water to warm cups. Meanwhile, for the (double) filter basket, grind and prepare the coffee dose, ensuring the coffee is fluffy (regardless of grinder setting). I use a sieve, then a needle to WDT. I use around 15g; adding or removing a gram or two depending on the style of the beans, and their age. Use a scale to maintain accuracy to within 0.1g Then, being gentle with the basket so as not to disturb the coffee, tamp absolutely horizontally, and with consistent force. I find it helpful to kneel, so the basket and tamper are at eye level. It doesn't have to be thirty pounds. I use finger tips on the basket side so i know it's level, and to the same extent every time. When you have the dose tamped into the filter basket, wait for the critical thermometer reading that you have noted to give good brewing in the past, then insert the basket, raise the handle to just under the point at which water is allowed into the brewing head, lock in the portafilter and completely raise the handle. I then wait a few seconds to preinfuse. During this wait, I gently pump the handle to completely fill the brew head, staying above the point at which water flowed in on the lever up-stroke. That is the point at which there are holes to allow the flow of water in from the boiler, and air back to it (through a one way valve). If you don't do this properly you will feel no pull resistance untill half way down the lever stroke. Then slowly pull the shot watching the flow, being careful not to jarr the coffee puck as you begin.
drgary Senior Member Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 126 Location: San Francisco Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Amica Coffex Lady Duchessa... Grinder: Pharos, Rio Super Jolly,... Vac Pot: AeroPress Drip: Melitta & filter paper... Roaster: Heat Gun/Bread Machine
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 10:09pm Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
NobbyR Said:
those machines are not suited for continuous use, because the brewgroup tends to overheat after a few shots. This temperature instability can make it difficult to pull shots of consistent quality. Each espresso might taste (at least a little) differently, and after a few shots it might even get burnt and bitter.
Well, no, that's not always true. A La Pavoni Europiccola Millennium is stable for temperature if the presssure is set right, about 0.8 bar. I tested it and all I need to do to adjust temperature is differentially cool a stock portafilter by dipping it in cool water. I'm saying a stock portafilter because it has enough metal mass. A bottomless portafilter may not give you that much control. Here's the thread where I tested it.
NobbyR Said:
The efford is, however, worth it. Once you've mastered your La Pavoni, you'll get great results.
The good thing is that lever machines are usually more forgiving when it comes to the right fineness of the grounds.
For more information, here's another thread I wrote after interviewing Christopher Cara, whose father was the first to import Pavonis into the U.S. Christopher fixes these for a living. He has a traditional taste in coffee but you'll see discussion on the thread of different ways to use the machine and maintain it. It also tells you about steaming but there's much more on that topic on sites like these.
Someone, I think tekomino on HB, wrote that the pressure on a hand lever is about like the pressure on a knife cutting through frozen butter.
For tamping, I like a fine grind and a tamp that only distributes the grounds by leveling the top of the puck and leaving a small amount of headroom. The wizards at Orphan Espresso (hi Doug and Barb!) describe this as their slapshot method. I like their hockey puck device for tapping the portafilter against rubber and catching any stray grinds, but any rubber surface will do, like many of the tamping mats you find out there.
And only fresh coffee roasted for espresso will provide a satisfying cup. For your training wheels, you might try Red Bird Espresso, which is high quality, very forgiving, and a real bargain for the 5 lb. size. Freeze most of it airtight in Mason jars. It will need to rest probably at least five days from the roast date for the flavors to open up. More than about 10 to 12 days the flavor may start to degrade.
TonyVan Senior Member Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 269 Location: Pacific Northwest Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: GS/3, La Pavoni Grinder: Macap M7K, Rocky Drip: Kone
Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011, 12:15am Subject: Re: La Pavoni newbie
Chiming in, don't be too quick to toss out your Rocky. There seems to be a lucky match between the LP and Rocky - surmised by some as due to the how the Rocky's larger proportion of fines interacts just right with the LP's small baskets. In fact, a test over at HB discovered that, when used with the La Pavoni, the Rocky worked as well or better than the Robur, but ONLY with the LP.
I got the same "mileage" using this combination too for about 15 years. When I later tried a Macap M4, I couldn't improve on the Rocky's results when grinding for the LP. Same with the big M7K conical - the LP's shots were just as good with the Rocky. So I still use the Rocky whenever I use the LP and leave the conical set for the GS/3.
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