walbergb Senior Member Joined: 22 Nov 2011 Posts: 4 Location: Brandon Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Saeco Royale Professional
Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011, 9:43pm Subject: Preinfusion question
Is liquid supposed to pour out of the spout during the preinfusion stage? I have a Saeco Royale Professional. I have the pre-brewing (Saeco's term for preinfusion) set for "long." During the "pre-brewing" stage, first water comes out and it quickly changes to light brown coffee. It lasts maybe 5 seconds. To me the crema is weak and the coffee tastes bitter. I remember the days when an espresso left a taste in my mouth as if I had just finished a Coffee Crisp chocolate bar. The extraction that follows is only 7-10 seconds long. Everything I've read indicates it should be over 20 seconds. The used "puck" is a cylindrical shape but soft and wet and crumbles easily. I'm wondering if the grounds are not tamped with enough pressure and that is why the pre-brewing has liquid coming through and the extraction doesn't take very long. Any thoughts?
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,603 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011, 1:15am Subject: Re: Preinfusion question
During preinfusion the puck is supposed to get moisturized before extraction. The ground coffee soakes in order to release more aroma and to form a more stable compound that resists the high pressure of extraction better. No flow should come out during this process.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
walbergb Senior Member Joined: 22 Nov 2011 Posts: 4 Location: Brandon Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Saeco Royale Professional
Posted Fri Nov 25, 2011, 3:43pm Subject: Re: Preinfusion question
Grind is set at the finest setting. That was the first variable I changed. I have also set the amount of coffee at the largest (9 grams).
As for channeling, I'm assuming you are referring to the tamping not being even and the water channeling through the coffee pellet unevenly. If so, this should show up as an uneven flow out of the spout, which isn't the case. The coffee flow is even, just too fast as far as I'm concerned. I'm thinking that the coffee isn't being tamped hard enough which is allowing the water to flow through the coffee pellet too fast. If the coffee pellet was compressed more, the water flow would slow down and capture more of the coffee flavour and aroma.
jlhsupport Senior Member Joined: 22 Oct 2010 Posts: 85 Location: Lafayette, IN Expertise: Professional
Posted Fri Nov 25, 2011, 5:12pm Subject: Re: Preinfusion question
A few drops of liquid will come out on super automatic machines. The primary reason for this is that there is a lengthy water pathway between the brewing unit and the spouts. The Saeco Royal series has a few inches of piping. Most of this liquid is expelled when the pressure release triggers at the end of brewing or a rinse cycle, but you are never going to get it all out.
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,603 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Sat Nov 26, 2011, 12:29am Subject: Re: Preinfusion question
walbergb Said:
Grind is set at the finest setting. ...I'm thinking that the coffee isn't being tamped hard enough which is allowing the water to flow through the coffee pellet too fast. If the coffee pellet was compressed more, the water flow would slow down and capture more of the coffee flavour and aroma.
Tamping harder might make a little difference. But its influence has been largely overrated. Tamping with exactly 30 lb used to be the gospel, and it's still spread at a lot of places and by a lot of people. Home baristas all over the world have been practicing with a scale in order to get a feeling what a 30 lb tamp is (me included). However, there's a physical limit to how hard you can tamp. Once the coffee granules are compressed so hard that they cannot possibly move any closer, tamping any harder makes no sense. No matter if it's a 12, 15 or 17 lb tamp. In most cases a relatively light tamp will suffice.
Grinding on the other hand has the biggest influence on flow rates, followed by dosing. The finer the grounds are and the bigger the dose is, the slower your flow will be. Just because your grinder is at its finest setting doesn't necessarily mean that the grounds are fine enough for proper extraction. It only means that the grinder is at its limit. Maybe it needs to be re-calibrated, maybe you'll need a better one. The integrated grinders of superautomatics are often inferior.
Whether you have a problem with channeling or not cannot be seen by an uneven flow or not. You have to check the puck for (tiny) holes. The best tool for diagnosing extraction problems like channeling is a naked portafilter with a traditional espresso machine. Having a superautomatic, that is of course not possible for you.
I'm sorry to say, no matter what manufacturers advertise, most home market superautomatics are technically not up to the task of brewing great espresso. At best its an approximation.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
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