Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Lever Espresso Machines
Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
Coffee Kids
Help folks who help folks in coffee producing nations.
coffeekids.org
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Lever Espresso > Spring Lever &...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 4 of 5 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
Prof
Senior Member
Prof
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 712
Location: Seattle
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: PV Lusso
Grinder: Pharos 696
Drip: Aeropress
Roaster: Behmor 1600+
Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014, 9:55pm
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

SpaceTime Said:

...  Also, it means they cannot be agile and "turn on a dime" for product updates, new releases, bug fixes, etc. like a big corp with infinite resources can.  What you see is what you get, and what you get is what you got pretty much.  However, they are open about their products - telling the user "go ahead and mod it - we gave it to you cheap and bare bones so the decorations are your choice."
...

Posted February 13, 2014 link

I picture this the other way around.  As a small, small company, they CAN turn on a dime and make a change without having to answer to shareholders or engineers or marketing folk, etc.  There is a give and take to all of this, of course.

I wonder if they have bit off more than they want to chew.  But for me, my Pharos is helping make wonderful coffee along with the PV Lusso.

 
LMWDP # 010
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 3:51pm
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

Prof Said:

But for me, my Pharos is helping make wonderful coffee along with the PV Lusso.

Posted February 13, 2014 link

At the end of the day, wonderful coffee is the key.

On the HB site, with all the Pharos alignment discussions - the mentality of "after a while I just ignore the fact the burrs rub and do not stay aligned - do you really notice the difference in the cup?" creeps into the discussion, implying and stating at times that folks are "obsessing" over a not so necessary detail of their grinder.  The stance that those who are troubled by the "rub, rub, rub" sound of the burrs when they turn their Pharos crank is an OCD issue... it is there, go read it.

Hmmm.... let's analyze that for just a moment - if you turned on your electric espresso grinder tomorrow and the burrs rubbed at your espresso grind settings, would you be alarmed?  Of course you would.  In fact, chances are 100% that you would IMMEDIATELY do something about it, not only because of the noise, but more importantly you would not be questioning the damage it is immediately doing to the burrs mainly because of the RPM exacerbating the rub.  (even if that means not running the grinder till you had a chance to get it fixed).  Nothing like metal burrs clashing at a few 100 to over 1000 RPM to spring one into action!!  Lol.  

Just because the Pharos is rubbing at a slower RPM does NOT mean it is NOT damaging your burrs - it is, albeit at a slower pace.  It is not different than an electric grinder where your burrs are rubbing - and should be treated no differently as an alignment issue that needs correcting.  These boards spend a good deal of time stressing the importance of "grinder, grinder, grinder" and that is founded in the fact that a evenly ground, consistent particle size is the best thing for good espresso.  And I will even say some are "obsessive" over the importance of an even, consistent grind. Yet, the question "do you notice a difference in the cup" when your burrs are misaligned comes up. Of course I do!  Why the double standard?  Doesn't misaligned burrs mean less than perfect espresso in the cup?  Anybody?  Bueller?
 
If your Pharos burrs rub at 1/64th a turn from zero, you could easily qualify that as an annoyance. (actually, in the case of the Pharos, it is the sign of a problem that will probably get worse.)  BUT if your Pharos burrs rub at your espresso setting (say 3/8th to 1/2 turn from zero) then you have a problem to fix.  And if that problem keeps reoccurring - ie - the Pharos keeps drifting back out of alignment - the you have a GRINDER problem to fix.  Above in the thread are some of those fixes already mentioned.

And that is what we are dealing with.  A grinder (the Pharos) that does not hold alignment.  There is plenty of anecdotal evidence - let's just start with why the VDD mods exist - to provide a more solid platform for the Pharos to operate from - one with solid bolt covers (aluminum, not plastic) and one with grind removal that does not require you banging on a grinder that already has alignment drift issues.

Norm - I am happy to hear you have a Pharos that never requires alignment adjustment.  You have not shared your secret - I will ask again - did you lock the outer burr?  What are you doing that your alignment does not drift?  Mine does routinely.  And I am not alone.  I wish those with Pharos' that stay / hold perfect alignment would please share their secret?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Prof
Senior Member
Prof
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 712
Location: Seattle
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: PV Lusso
Grinder: Pharos 696
Drip: Aeropress
Roaster: Behmor 1600+
Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 8:35pm
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

Geez, chill out by now.  

My Pharos is set a little less than 1/2 a revolution from tight.  It does not rub at 1/4 a revolution tightness.  The grind is on the fine side for my Lusso but the espresso is very good.  I have kept the inner bolts loose as from the factory.  The one time I adjusted the alignment, it took longer than I expected, but all is well, and I learned more about the grinder.

I don't change the setting for newer or older roasts, so I am not OCD about having a perfect alignment or grind setting.  If, down the road, I notice things rubbing, I'll loosen the outer bolts and realign things.

No muss, no fuss, Titan quality grinds, and I'm not concerned.  It's a very inexpensive grinder for what it does.  

My Zass has been relegated to spice grinding since the Pharos came.  The difference in espresso quality is immense between the two.  

I would really hate to spend $945 for the new 2014 HG1 and have to deal with niggling problems as some have had with their 2013 versions.  So maybe I should go with a Forte?  Versalab?  Robur?  Things could escalate too quickly.  And I fear any grinder will have things that could be better.

So, relax, don't worry, have an espresso.  You might need to offload your Pharos and get something that will irritate you less.  That's what I will do if my #696 starts behaving like yours.

Life is too short to put up with consistent irritations.  Cheers.

 
LMWDP # 010
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 9:41am
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

Prof Said:

Geez, chill out by now.  

My Pharos is set a little less than 1/2 a revolution from tight.  It does not rub at 1/4 a revolution tightness.  The grind is on the fine side for my Lusso but the espresso is very good.  I have kept the inner bolts loose as from the factory.  The one time I adjusted the alignment, it took longer than I expected, but all is well, and I learned more about the grinder.

I don't change the setting for newer or older roasts, so I am not OCD about having a perfect alignment or grind setting.  If, down the road, I notice things rubbing, I'll loosen the outer bolts and realign things.

No muss, no fuss, Titan quality grinds, and I'm not concerned.  It's a very inexpensive grinder for what it does.  

My Zass has been relegated to spice grinding since the Pharos came.  The difference in espresso quality is immense between the two.  

I would really hate to spend $945 for the new 2014 HG1 and have to deal with niggling problems as some have had with their 2013 versions.  So maybe I should go with a Forte?  Versalab?  Robur?  Things could escalate too quickly.  And I fear any grinder will have things that could be better.

So, relax, don't worry, have an espresso.  You might need to offload your Pharos and get something that will irritate you less.  That's what I will do if my #696 starts behaving like yours.

Life is too short to put up with consistent irritations.  Cheers.

Posted February 14, 2014 link

So who is the one who is getting irritated here?  Pot... kettle... black.  So now the post has turned personal, noted.

Just being objective, sharing my experience and trying to gather data Prof. Actually I am not irritated in the slightest, I just try something new, move on, and not reluctant to share my experience.  The recommendations, "Technical" bulletins, etc are just not working - they are stop gap bandaids that don't have long term benefit.  I am not alone with this obserservation.  We can't learn if we don't share our experience honestly, the give and take is where the learning comes from - knowing that some will get defensive about that (not sure why).  

And there is that "OCD" thing again - funny how folks who want an aligned grinder are... again.... OCD.  LOL  Interesting.  And there is that slam / slight of the HG One again... we seem to have a pattern here.  

For some reason you don't like the fact I am saying the Pharos is not perfect, that has been clear since your first reply.  The Pharos does have Titan burrs in it, whether you get Titan performance is all a function if you are able to keep it performing like a Titan grinder should.  Misaligned burrs are never a good thing when the objective is as consistent grind / particle size as possible.  It does matter, sorry if my opinion irritates you on that front.

Thanks for sharing your experience though, I do appreciate that...  I envy that you have one of the few Pharos' out there that magically does not need mods / tweaking to hold its alignment.!

Cheers Prof.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Prof
Senior Member
Prof
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 712
Location: Seattle
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: PV Lusso
Grinder: Pharos 696
Drip: Aeropress
Roaster: Behmor 1600+
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 10:43am
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

SpaceTime Said:

So who is the one who is getting irritated here?  Pot... kettle... black.  So now the post has turned personal, noted.

Just being objective, sharing my experience and trying to gather data Prof. Actually I am not irritated in the slightest, I just try something new, move on, and not reluctant to share my experience.  The recommendations, "Technical" bulletins, etc are just not working - they are stop gap bandaids that don't have long term benefit.  I am not alone with this obserservation.  We can't learn if we don't share our experience honestly, the give and take is where the learning comes from - knowing that some will get defensive about that (not sure why).  

And there is that "OCD" thing again - funny how folks who want an aligned grinder are... again.... OCD.  LOL  Interesting.  And there is that slam / slight of the HG One again... we seem to have a pattern here.  

For some reason you don't like the fact I am saying the Pharos is not perfect, that has been clear since your first reply.  The Pharos does have Titan burrs in it, whether you get Titan performance is all a function if you are able to keep it performing like a Titan grinder should.  Misaligned burrs are never a good thing when the objective is as consistent grind / particle size as possible.  It does matter, sorry if my opinion irritates you on that front.

Thanks for sharing your experience though, I do appreciate that...  I envy that you have one of the few Pharos' out there that magically does not need mods / tweaking to hold its alignment.!

Cheers Prof.

Posted February 15, 2014 link

Your sarcasm is noted.  I'm not irritated at you, trust me, there are far more important things in life than this.  

It's time to dial this back and agree that the Pharos is not perfect for everyone.  

Over and out, and I hope the OP finds his/her way to making a decision.

 
LMWDP # 010
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:14am
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

Prof Said:

Your sarcasm is noted.  I'm not irritated at you, trust me, there are far more important things in life than this.  

It's time to dial this back and agree that the Pharos is not perfect for everyone.  

Over and out, and I hope the OP finds his/her way to making a decision.

Posted February 15, 2014 link

Fair enough, you are right.... good call.  

And agreed, sorry OP, good luck in your choice.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
orphanespresso
Senior Member
orphanespresso
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 245
Location: Troy
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Cremina Faemina Microcimbali...
Grinder: Hand Grinders
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 3:32pm
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

Just stumbled across this 'just the fact pros and cons' rant....you will be pleased to know that all of this background roar over the Pharos has long ago worn thin and I won't keep making them forever.  Between the  people who think they can over engineer the thing into perfection and the ones who never bother to understand the principles of the machine, the build concept, or the challenges involved, we have pretty much had it.   I have completely redesigned the whole thing and now ship the grinder with a locked and set alignment, a longer handle, and all sorts of tweaks and changes but does anyone bother to comment on these things??   Our costs rise but has the price gone up?  

The post you refer to on HB is a modded (voodoo daddy) Pharos so is not Germaine to the topic.

I have burrs for 85 more Pharos and when they are gone I am done.   You read it here first.

So there you go, you win, I quit...feel better?

Doug Garrott.
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 4:02pm
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

orphanespresso Said:

Just stumbled across this 'just the fact pros and cons' rant....you will be pleased to know that all of this background roar over the Pharos has long ago worn thin and I won't keep making them forever.  Between the  people who think they can over engineer the thing into perfection and the ones who never bother to understand the principles of the machine, the build concept, or the challenges involved, we have pretty much had it.   I have completely redesigned the whole thing and now ship the grinder with a locked and set alignment, a longer handle, and all sorts of tweaks and changes but does anyone bother to comment on these things??   Our costs rise but has the price gone up?  

The post you refer to on HB is a modded (voodoo daddy) Pharos so is not Germaine to the topic.

I have burrs for 85 more Pharos and when they are gone I am done.   You read it here first.

So there you go, you win, I quit...feel better?

Doug Garrott.

Posted February 15, 2014 link

I was just coming back to the post to present how my latest adjustment was going when I saw this.

I am on my fourth (or fifth?) day now since locking the outer burr down, and it seems to be working. At 1/16th a turn only the slightest rub.  At 1/8th, nothing.  That is a first.  My completely stock Pharos is holding alignment.

But after reading this post, I must say I am walking away less than victorious.  I was not trying to win, and to see this Doug would be a true loss to everyone. But it does seem there is more here than meets the eye... obviously this has been building for quite some time.

EDIT:

I have completely redesigned the whole thing and now ship the grinder with a locked and set alignment, a longer handle, and all sorts of tweaks and changes but does anyone bother to comment on these things??

I also did not realize that you shipped them locked / set now either.  That is a good thing to all current and future buyers and good to hear.  I hope the work I did on my stock Pharos is done similarly and like you are shipping them now, because something I have done (ie - locking the outer burr) is working on my current stock Pharos.

OP - it sounds like you are getting a Pharos that will hold alignment better.  That is good to hear.

EDIT 2:
Running a business can be thankless at times, and it is common that people focus on the problems, what is wrong, the negative about a product too much sometimes.  That is engrained in our culture in some ways... to constantly make things better.  Some customers will be tougher than others inherently, but this endless (and sometimes thankless) cycle of feedback, improvement is what makes a better product.  Nothing is perfect, neither is the Pharos, and even if you did add 5 more features, and raised your price to $500 - guess what - folks would still find issues with it.  Guaranteed.

To see a post where someone says "I quit" in a thread to my pointing out what I thought were things about the product that needed management by the owner - naturally my first reaction was I felt terrible.  But thinking about this again, sleeping on it, I am not sure I would change what I said.... Doug, I hope your decision to stop making the Pharos means you have a better, improved hand grinder waiting in the wings.  If you stop making grinders altogether, then that is a loss to the coffee community.  If you did so because it was time to "hang it up" then so be it.... but if you did so because users (like myself) pointed out things that needed management about the grinder... then I would say you expected that anyway.   At the end of the day, I hope you make a Pharos II....
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CoffeeRon
Senior Member
CoffeeRon
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 749
Location: Tacoma Wa.
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Wega Lyra, Europiccola(still...
Grinder: Macap M7D, Pharos, Vario W,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam CoffeeMaster
Drip: Melita BCM-4
Roaster: FR SR500,B-1600, SC/TO
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:28pm
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

orphanespresso Said:

Just stumbled across this 'just the fact pros and cons' rant....you will be pleased to know that all of this background roar over the Pharos has long ago worn thin and I won't keep making them forever.  Between the  people who think they can over engineer the thing into perfection and the ones who never bother to understand the principles of the machine, the build concept, or the challenges involved, we have pretty much had it.   I have completely redesigned the whole thing and now ship the grinder with a locked and set alignment, a longer handle, and all sorts of tweaks and changes but does anyone bother to comment on these things??   Our costs rise but has the price gone up?  

The post you refer to on HB is a modded (voodoo daddy) Pharos so is not Germaine to the topic.

I have burrs for 85 more Pharos and when they are gone I am done.   You read it here first.

So there you go, you win, I quit...feel better?

Doug Garrott.

Posted February 15, 2014 link

Hi Doug,
 I would just like to say that I have a great deal of respect and admiration for you and what you have done. First taking your passion for lever machines and hand grinders and turning it into a successful business. Then taking it to the next level and, with your knowledge of hand grinders, developing your own with that experience and knowledge you have of them.

 Funny but I was just talking to my son about a problem he's having with his moving business. It's run on a website hosted by Uhaul, and his reviews are a HUGE factor in how much business he gets. One 4.5 (out of 5) review and he drops down on the list and it slows his business down for a bit. My answer to him was- we've all heard it- You can please all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time. It comes with the territory.

 You have put yourself out there in a big way and you can't do that without getting criticism from people who think they know better, think you could have done it better, etc.. I would encourage you to take a step back and look at what you've accomplished. From out here it looks pretty impressive. The fact that you listen to the feedback and try to resolve problems people have with your grinders is proof that you care. The fact that your grinders are still selling means you're doing things right. Please don't let the negativity get you down. You're doing something you enjoy- right? Don't let that part get away from you.

Thank you, you are an inspiration for me and the business I am slowly starting,
Ron
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
BLrdFX
Senior Member
BLrdFX
Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 231
Location: Seattle Area
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: L-I
Grinder: HG-One, Kony-E, VL, Lido2
Drip: Chemex
Roaster: Quest
Posted Sun Feb 16, 2014, 7:33am
Subject: Re: Spring Lever & Manual Grinders | Recommendations
 

orphanespresso Said:

Just stumbled across this 'just the fact pros and cons' rant....you will be pleased to know that all of this background roar over the Pharos has long ago worn thin and I won't keep making them forever.  Between the  people who think they can over engineer the thing into perfection and the ones who never bother to understand the principles of the machine, the build concept, or the challenges involved, we have pretty much had it.   I have completely redesigned the whole thing and now ship the grinder with a locked and set alignment, a longer handle, and all sorts of tweaks and changes but does anyone bother to comment on these things??   Our costs rise but has the price gone up?  

The post you refer to on HB is a modded (voodoo daddy) Pharos so is not Germaine to the topic.

I have burrs for 85 more Pharos and when they are gone I am done.   You read it here first.

So there you go, you win, I quit...feel better?

Doug Garrott.

Posted February 15, 2014 link

Sorry to hear this Doug!  You and Barb have produced a great little grinder at a very affordable price.  I doubt anyone could beat it in the Bang for the Buck category :-)

Take heart, there are Pharos users like myself who like their Pharos, modded or not!  The RDT makes using the Pharos a breeze, as Prof has pointed out, and if anyone is willing to read the hundreds of Posts regarding the Pharos they too will realize what a nice grinder it is for the monies!!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 4 of 5 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Lever Espresso > Spring Lever &...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Cafe Espresso Machines
Video reviews, nationwide installation, leasing options... Nuova Simonelli, Rancilio, La Marzocco.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.374642848969)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+