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Espresso: Espresso Mods and Restorations
PID Kit Review for Silvia

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Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > PID Kit Review...

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ardy2d
Senior Member

Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 62
Location: San Jose
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Old Gaggia
Grinder: Old Gaggia mdf
Roaster: Popper--original poppery

Posted Tue Sep 25, 2007, 6:12pm Subject: PID Kit Review for Silvia

What is a PID PID is defined in Wikipedia as "a proportional-integral-derivative controller. A PID controller attempts to correct the error between a measured process variable and a desired set point by calculating and then outputting a corrective action that can adjust the process accordingly" So in the context of an espresso machine, a PID is a little computer that works out strategies for turning off and on the machine’s heating element in order to achieve a highly stable target temperature. First let's review how the unmodified Silvia controls boiler temperature. Letss say that your espresso machine thermostat is normally set to turn off the heat when the unit reaches 200 degrees. What would happen is that the espresso machine heating element would remain on until the thermostat registered 200 degrees. But the heating element has a lot of latent heat even after it is turned off. This is similar to an electric stove burner that is still red hot after you turn it off. Because of this latent heat, the boiler water in the espresso machine would continue to absorb heat from the heating element and get hotter even after the heating element is tuned off. Silvia's built in thermostat is an electro mechanical unit that senses temperature and switches heater element voltage on and off. This device has a few drawbacks. It responds slowly to temperature changes. It is not highly accurate. And because of it's electro mechanical nature it would likely wear out quickly if it were cycled on and off rapidly. All of these characteristics of the stock thermostat combine to create a situation where the heater power cycles on and off fairly slowly. And as a result you would see rather wide boiler temperature swings from the coolest to the hottest temperature. (30-40 degrees) Obviously such wide temperature swings can cause very erratic results from your machine. One fairly effective way of circumventing this problem with out using a PID controller is to use "temperature surfing technique." The objective of this process is to achieve a repeatable temperature by always pulling the espresso shot at the same part of the boiler heating cycle. I have read that this works pretty well although it does require real attention to detail. And to some extent you are inevitably flying in the dark as you temperature surf since you gauge or read out of the exact boiler water temperature. The PID kit from MLG Properties The PID kit from MLG Properties has three main elements that totally change the boiler temperature stabilization equation. The first part of the kit is the PID controller. The controller actually decides when and how much heat to apply. The controller has another great feature in that it has a digital display that can provide an instantaneous read out of the boiler water temperature. Of course, in order to do that, the PID controller needs to be connected up to a very good instant read thermocouple. And so the e second main element of the kit is a custom manufactured instant read thermocouple that replaces the built in thermostat (Note: the original thermostat is not removed and no wires are cut during installation) Finally, the PID controller needs to control some rather large electric current going to the heating element. Now it happens that computers work with low voltages and tiny amounts of current, but not so well with large voltages.. So the PID by itself is not well suited to control the current going to the heating element. This brings us to the third part of the kit--- a solid state relay. This relay takes the low voltage-low current signal voltage from the PID and uses that to control the high voltage-high current power going to the heating element. So how do all of these things work together after your PID kit is installed? When you first turn on the machine you see the heater light come on (as it normally does) giving immediate and constant heat to warm up the machine. You can watch the digital read out as the boiler temperature rises As the boiler temperature begins to approach the "set temperature" the controller will start cycling the heating element on and off so the actual boiler temperature does not over-shoot the set temperature. The cycling on and off becomes more rapid as the boiler temperature nearly reaches the set point. And then the heating element continues to cycle off and on fairly rapidly in order to maintain the exact correct temperature. When the machine is all warmed up, you will see the heating element cycle briefly about once per second. Surprises. When you do not have the PID controller and instant read thermocouple, you live in a world of relative ignorance. After you have the PID installed, you see exactly what happens to boiler temperature when you use the machine. One thing that really surprised me is how quickly the boiler temperature falls when you pull a shot. As you know, the hot water for your shot is immediately replaced by cold water from the reservoir and this is what quickly cools the boiler. With the instant temperature read out on the PID controller you see this clearly. You also see how long you have to wait until the boiler temperature is restored. And further, you can clearly see the difference between a well preheated machine and a machine that was not well preheated. Fundamentally, the temperature a preheated machine is MUCH more stable since you have big chunks of metal that are retaining heat. And again you can directly observe this temperature stability thanks to the PID temperature display. So in the end, the PID not only does an exquisite job of stabilizing boiler temperature, it also gives the operator clear feedback required in order to refine a repeatable extraction technique. Notes on the kit and installation process. The kit that is shipped by MLG Properties is quite remarkably complete. That is to say that MLG Properties has thought about pretty much everything and ships you exactly what you need to do the job with minimal tools and consternation. All wires are pre-stripped and cut to exactly require length. The kit comes with a full and detailed instruction manual on CD. No part of the original Silvia is damaged, cut or removed during installation. Another really nice thing about the kit are the design goals. The kit is designed for FULLY REVERSABLE installation. That is to say that if you change you r mind, you could remove the kit entirely and return the Silvia to exactly its original condition. There are absolutely no permanent changes to the Silvia. The PID controller is fully set up and tested before shipping. All wiring is appropriate for the voltages that are carried. Care is taken to insure no unsafe condition is created. The PID controller is pre-set to a boiler temperature of 228 degrees. (You can easily adjust this if you choose) While this temperature seems high, I think it is likely a good starting point. The reason being that the brew group head will always be at a lower temperature than the boiler temperature. And as you run water through the head, the hot water will lose heat to the massive metal brew head. Also, as I mentioned above, the boiler quickly loses temperature when you turn on the brew switch. All of these different and changing factors seem to even out for good results. The end result is that the 228 degree water cools as it hits the cooler group head. As the shot progresses, the boiler water temperature rapidly cools due to incoming cool replenishment water. But this is balanced by the heat stored in the group head from the initially hot water. And of course as the shot progresses, the heating element is adding heat back to the boiler so that water temperature does not fall too far. The actual amount that the boiler temperature falls depends upon you technique. If you have a small dribble of shot flow coming out, there is less cooling effect. Whereas a more rapid shot flow will cool the boiler more. This all sounds very complicated, but actually it is quite simple. If you have a fully pre-warmed machine you simply pull your shot. The difference is that with the temperature read out you can see the temperature variations that would also take place even with out the PID showing you this information. PID kits are available modified to also control steaming temperature for about $50 extra Esthetics You can go to the MLG Properties web site (http://www.pidkits.com/index.php) and get a very good idea how this modification will look after installation. One aspect of this installation that may not be clear is that the PID unit is not mounted directly to the side of the machine. Instead it is mounted to a piece of Plexiglas that is attached to the machine by heavy-duty Velcro pads. There are several reasons for this arrangement. First, the installation is intended to be fully reversible without damage to the machine. Second, this arrangement allows the PID mounting location to be adjusted somewhat at any time if you desire. Further, in case you happen to hit the PID box, it will simply break away and re-attach without damage to the PID or Silvia. Over all, I am not in love with having this box hanging off the side of my machine, but it looks ok and the benefits are well worthwhile. Installation-How difficult? Naturally, before I began the installation, I read the manual (what a concept!) The installation guide sort of scared and confused me. This was not because it was badly written< Nor was it the case that that installation process was so very difficult. It is just that it is a little hard to accurately describe how to do anything in just words. Over all, the installation process was not tremendously difficult. And the kit is extremely thoroughly prepared for you. On the other hand, it likely takes more than average handyman skills. So if you would not be comfortable opening up a vacuum cleaner or a toaster, you may want to re consider doing this installation your self. A reasonable alternative strategy would be to hire some handyman to do the work for you. Over all, I am incredibly thrilled with adding a PID to my Silvia. It has made an enormous difference for the over all quality of my espresso. And best of all, it makes the results fully repeatable. This takes so much uncertainty out of the process, So now when I taste a different bean or roast, I feel confident in evaluating that shot compared to other shots I have pulled.

gteague
Senior Member

Joined: 3 Dec 2003
Posts: 75
Location: dfw
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: silvia (pid)
Grinder: mazzer mini
Vac Pot: aeropress
Drip: capresso st600
Roaster: freshroast 8

Posted Tue Sep 25, 2007, 7:38pm Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

thanks very much for the detailed review. i have one question: does this unit have to run through a 'learn' cycle so it knows better how your particular machine reacts? /guy

We were somewhere around the Withywindle on the edge of the Old Forest when the drugs began to take hold. --Hunter S. Tolkien

ardy2d
Senior Member

Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 62
Location: San Jose
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Old Gaggia
Grinder: Old Gaggia mdf
Roaster: Popper--original poppery

Posted Tue Sep 25, 2007, 9:02pm
Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

gteague Said:

does this unit have to run through a 'learn' cycle so it knows better how your particular machine reacts?/guy

Posted September 25, 2007 link

The kit designer/manufacturer programs the PID before he sends it
so everything was good to go right after installation.

Keep in mind that the kit is explicitly designed only for the Silvia.
He has added support for a few other machines ... but again those kits are specifically designed for each specific machine he is supporting

gteague
Senior Member

Posted Fri Sep 28, 2007, 12:02am Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

ardy2d Said: The kit designer/manufacturer programs the PID before he sends it so everything was good to go right after installation. Keep in mind that the kit is explicitly designed only for the Silvia. He has added support for a few other machines ... but again those kits are specifically designed for each specific machine he is supporting Posted September 25, 2007 link thanks. last sunday i ordered a pre-built combo from dave @ hitechespresso. he shipped it promptly on monday and hopefully ups will deliver it today. i haven't asked dave what model pid he uses and his photographs are blurry. it looks very similar to the watlow on the mlg page, but the icons on the buttons are different. hopefully he will send along adequate documentation in order for me to operate this device. i've tried slogging through the alt.coffee archives, but came up empty except for the fact that dave is not, shall we say with understatement, universally liked over there. (!) but i've been in and out of usenet forums for years and know how some of the feuds start and expand, so i'll reserve judgment. i gave up on usenet long ago due to such personality conflicts. since i am completely clueless about these devices and have had no luck over the course of 6-8 years and a corresponding number of machines at making drinkable espresso, i might have to take advantage of his 'tech support' if i continue to fail in spite of nailing down the temperature variable. at least i got a batch of blackcat beans yesterday that were roasted on monday. hopefully they'll still be fresh enough to work with as i still haven't found a local roaster to get beans from. while waiting, i've been reading about pids in general is what prompted the learning question. one article i read said that the controller would learn the dynamics of each machine, not just each model or maker, and set itself accordingly. perhaps i was reading about the fuzzy logic ones, i don't remember. one thing i did notice is that the pid in dave's photos are set at 222 or 223deg whereas what i've read and the other photos seem to suggest 226-228 is more 'correct'. your posts implies 228deg a good starting point. considering that some say they can taste a 1deg difference this seems to be a significant difference in set temps. anyway, i hope to be able to provide some sort of review by the end of the weekend if ups does deliver it today. /guy

We were somewhere around the Withywindle on the edge of the Old Forest when the drugs began to take hold. --Hunter S. Tolkien

dutchcoffeenut
Senior Member

Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 81
Location: BC Canada
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Andreja Premium
Grinder: Solis + Macap
Vac Pot: I wish
Drip: Techniform
Roaster: 4 homebld + Ambex YM2

Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 10:20pm Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

I hope you have more luck with Dave's "HiTech kits" then I did. He did send it promptly, He did answer my first two calls for help promptly, and when the kit kept giving problems, He did offer to take the kit back for a refund, (( leaving me with a great big hole in my Sylvia)) but he would not help me resolve my problem which exists to this day............... The PID which is a cheap unknown brand has a tendency to go nuts and cycle through random temperature readings like crazy untill you restart the machine......... 5-6-10 times until it catches on again. I have tried everything including checking over and over again for loose contacts and wires (which Dave said was the cause, end of story) but other then restarting it over and over nothing else works. But then It could be good for a week....... or a day........ I was not impressed, Having said all this When it works it is a great feature to have and helps greatly in the consistency of my shots. Sylvia is now parked however since I just upgraded to an Andreja Premium, and that's a whole other beast. Sylvia anyone ???? Ed

There's So many of you, how come there's so little Good coffee out there???? http://picasaweb.google.com/Lightrover for roasterpics. http://pbase.com/lightrover

pravspresso
Senior Member

Joined: 6 Nov 2005
Posts: 146
Location: toronto, canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quickmill Alexia: Watlow PID
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly
Roaster: Behmor 1600

Posted Mon Oct 8, 2007, 10:31am Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

Sorry about your experience..that really sucks. I had an issue with my gaggia setup from auberins but this was before the kits were available. Basically i had messed up some wiring issues and the PID was of course not displaying properly..read a negative output. The owner of Aub. got on the phone with me and we did a complete once over many times of each and every connection. I was skeptical about the whole connections issue but eventually we found the issue and all was solved.."it was my fault" Goodluck in any future purposeful or industrious undertakings you may have. ;)

StevestonBrad
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Vancouver
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Rancilio Miss Silvia
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky Doserless

Posted Fri Nov 23, 2007, 10:14am Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

"When the machine is all warmed up, you will see the heating element cycle briefly about once per second" Just a question regarding a PID'd Sylvia. When the heating element cycles once per second, does this cause the status light to flash on and off like a strobe?

redzone
Senior Member

Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 18
Location: New Zealand
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: VBM Super Lever
Grinder: Compak W10 WBC
Vac Pot: Many
Drip: Many
Roaster: Coretto

Posted Fri Nov 23, 2007, 10:51am Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

Yes it does flicker mate, but the improvement in my opinion is well worth it ! CB.

caortiz
Senior Member

Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Monterrey, N.L. MEXICO
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Rancillio Silvia w/PID
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Drip: Krups, Bodum french press...
Roaster: i-Roast 2

Posted Fri Nov 23, 2007, 12:14pm Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

Yes it lights like every second, maybe more, but it doesn't looks like a strobe or like a fast intermittent light. It doesn't looks bad after all, really. Before intalling my PID I was more worried about the noise you probably hear when the thermostat cuts the heating element. And I was thinking that it was going to make this sound -like a click- every second. But after I completed the installation, it doesn't make any sound it's like a quiet light flashing, since the old thermostat is deactivated. And of course my personal experience after the PID is that temperature surfing is a really bad joke, really, and a totally waste of time. After a year of trying temperature surfing I had the following method, according to all my research on CG and other sites: I waited like an hour for preheating silvia, then a fast switch to the brewing to "refresh" the cycle after the long stand by. Then the "official" preheating blank shot. Then I grind, tamp, -push on the brewing to start the boiler, AGAIN-. By the time I was polishing the pf, the light was off and... Then I started the timer to 40 secs. Lock and load PF past 30 sec. After 40 sec. I pulled the shot After 15 seconds past, I started the steaming switch to kick the boiler and gain temperature. Stopped at 25 sec. sometimes 27 sec. If it was a fast flow 25, if it was ristretto 27, depending. None of this.... None of this tasted like the first shot of my new PID Silvia. It tasted completely different.... a whole lot better.. That was after the first try with the PID (yes, that's the one that you're expecting to fail)... I considered myself as a temperature surf master... jaja! On the other side, my wife thought I was totally crazy after spending more than 15 min to make her a cappuccino. Not to mention that one time I recommended a Rancilio as a gift but I had to explain all of this. Got mine from Jim's MLG... outstanding service, rapid response to my emails in the process of the installation. Excellent follow up, with Jim himself. It worths every penny, really. After and while you're installing it you get the feeling that the kit really involved a lot of hours of planning/studying. And the taste is the best part... First of all... the "metal" kind of taste is gone -know what I mean?-...Maybe due to the low temperature and unstable of the past shots. This is amazing, it's like entering to another league. Anyway those are my comments IMHO of course. Don't get hooked by temperature surfing... you deserve better espresso. Hope this helps, cO.

Espressosnob
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Feb 2004
Posts: 53
Location: Illinois
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Ranchilio Silvia, Gaggia...
Grinder: Kitchen Aid Pro...
Drip: Capresso Coffee TEC, Braun,...

Posted Fri Nov 23, 2007, 9:25pm Subject: Re: PID Kit Review for Silvia

Just installed Auber's PID kit. Well made parts. Easy to install (about an hour). No wires to cut - wires preterminated so they "plug" together. This PID is in a small aluminum case that fits nicely between the grouphead and the steam wand. Kit required no modifications to the machine's case. Works well. The controller comes pre-set for Silvia so it works without having to mess with a lot of settings. Couldn't have been easier. Make Silvia just that much easier to "love" -- nice to be able to put away the timer!

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