Vicroamer Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2007 Posts: 31 Location: Australia Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Aurora single group HX lever Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Thu Jun 19, 2008, 4:55am Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber
Following this thread with interest, great work JeepinGeo This line has me intrigued "Toss in the Vivaldi chamber Chris is getting and I'll have plenty to experiment with! :)" Can you tell us more, pretty please. :-)
JeepinGeo Senior Member Joined: 5 Dec 2007 Posts: 175 Location: Campbell, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Alex Duetto, Silvia Grinder: Mazzer SJ (x2), Rocky DL
Posted Thu Jun 19, 2008, 8:22am Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber
Barrett, Thanks for the info!
Joe, I converted over to two longer arresters last night. Ramp up to 9 bar is slow and even. It was late so no real shots yet with this combo. I'm still not sure what an ideal pre infusion chamber ramp up looks like. Is it slow and steady, ramps to 4 bar slowly then races quickly to 9 bar, or ?? I certainly will post parts, pics, prices, instructions. The arresters are $13 ea. from HD, the fittings add about another $30, so it does get up there pretty quick.
Ted, In this thread "LaSpaziale Mini... or not..." Chris mentions getting a pre infusion chamber for the Vivaldi. If Chris is willing to send me one, I'll be happy to hook it up to the Silvia, test it and publish results of the performance. Could be a good product for the Silvia market.
I wonder if Vivaldi's pre-infusion chamber would work on Silvia and perform any better than the single units you are using? Hopefully you can get your hands on one to find out.
Can Silvia's installation and pre-infusion parts be as few and simple to install as the Vivaldi's? I would be curious to find out. For me, the simpler the better.
I don't know how long the pre-infusion should be, but I would guess that some pre-infusion is better than none, and I would consider installing some form of it on Silvia.
Again, thank you for all your work and I look forward to hearing about your progress and options.
Posted Thu Jun 19, 2008, 4:21pm Subject: Re: Request to E61 owners with pre infusion chambers:
JeepinGeo Said:
For comparison value, after starting the brew cycle I'd like to know how long in seconds it takes for brew to emerge and how long to reach your max pressure.
Please list;
Machine/model: Vibe or Rotary pump: Time (in seconds) until brew first emerges from basket (if naked PF available): Time (in seconds) until max pressure is reached: Shot characteristics (blind, double, triple, etc.):
I'd like to see this data on more machines as well. I think so few single boilers have a pressure gauge though:
Here's mine on the Isomac Venus. I watched it extra careful today....
Machine/model: Isomac Venus Vibe or Rotary pump: Vibe (voltage controlled for pressure , no OPV relief for brew pressure) Time (in seconds) until brew first emerges from basket (if naked PF available): No naked, no spout, about 6 seconds (range is 5-7 seconds) until first drips. Time (in seconds) until max pressure is reached: Usually 8 seconds, but follows an 'S' curve: slow to about 2 bar in the first 2-3 seconds, then rapid from about 3 to 8 bar at 6-7 seconds, then slow up the final bar to 9.5 at 8-9 seconds. holds there until 18-20 seconds then fades a bit, 1/2 bar down the last few seconds to 25. Shot characteristics (blind, double, triple, etc.): Full double with 16-17gram dose.
JeepinGeo Senior Member Joined: 5 Dec 2007 Posts: 175 Location: Campbell, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Alex Duetto, Silvia Grinder: Mazzer SJ (x2), Rocky DL
Posted Thu Jun 19, 2008, 10:07pm Subject: Re: Request to E61 owners with pre infusion chambers:
Joe,
Thanks for the link. Good stuff. Looks like this is new to the Vivaldi folks, too. Could Silvia's install be as simple? I don't think so, that one pic where the chamber is screwed directly into the group is going to be hard to beat. There is going to be some more fittings required with Silvia. The combination of water hammer arresters and fittings I've found so far will need to be somewhere other than up inside the front panel.
Gary,
Thanks for the good info! I know how hard it is to keep an eye on the gauge, the time and the shot all at once. Interesting pressure behavior. Did you ever try the dual voltage control with the phase angle fired SSR I was experimenting with. It worked pretty well to deliver a consistent lower pressure, but the pump started sounding funny and didn't always produce the same pressure. I think my setup was overly sensitive to line voltage or a change in the control resistance.
This is the basic parts I used for the installation. Notice the difference in chamber size even though the arresters have the exact same Oatey part number and were picked from the same carton at Home Depot (??). The ramp is slower with the longer arrester, which has more capacity. The heart of the system is the Beswick adapter which gets us into the M6 screw port on the Silvia group. Originally, I matched the Beswick adapter with a separate fitting for the 1/8" tube, which leads to problems. There is a seal on the fitting and the 10-32 brass threads are easy to damage from over tightening. I have since found a one-piece solution from Beswick (the 1/8" compression fitting is incororated into the M6 adapter) and have some on order.
So far the basic single arrester kit is at ~ $32 without the 1/8" tubing or tax/shipping AND there is another rub - Beswick has a $50 minimum. :(
George
UPDATE 02/05/2009:
Beswick now has a stainless steel version of the M6 adaptor. Part Number: M6CBL-1018-1-303-S
The web site may not list it, but they will supply the 303 SS version with a high temp silicone o-ring for $26.40 ea. Be sure to specify the -S suffix for silicone o-ring.
Yes, it is designed to use the existing M6 port. For Jon's install we are going to tee off the 1/8" tubing coming from the M6 port since he already had a front panel pressure gauge using the M6 port. In my installation I couldn't use the M6 port because of the brew temp TC probe fitting, so I drilled an additional access port in the group and then tee'd from there to support the front panel gauge and water hammers. M6 port is so much easier if it's available.
If you have Eric's group temp thermocouple adapter mod using the M6 port, you might consider doing what I did. This is the post 3-way port I added and the compression fitting to NPT tee:
JeepinGeo Senior Member Joined: 5 Dec 2007 Posts: 175 Location: Campbell, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Alex Duetto, Silvia Grinder: Mazzer SJ (x2), Rocky DL
Posted Sat Jun 21, 2008, 4:17pm Subject: Re: Request to E61 owners with pre infusion chambers:
I took a couple comparison shot videos with and without the dual arresters. The shots are both pretty ugly and too fast, the beans were only 4 days past roast date, but I think you will see there is some difference. The first shot was without any pre infusion, the second with the dual arresters installed was about 4 minutes later. Preparation of the shots was as consistent as I could make them, both weighed on a digital gram scale, ground, dosed, tamped the same.
The shot details are: Date: 6/21/08 Beans: Barefoot Bigfoot (Roast Date 6/17/08) Grind: 99 SJ - 3+1.8 Dose: 16.5 grams Basket: LM RL DB Aressters?: No and Yes(dual) Heated PF?: Yes Max Pressure: see videos Boiler PID: 226.0 F
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