CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Mods and Restorations, Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

Espresso: Espresso Mods and Restorations
Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

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Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > Silvia mod: E61...

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stevier
Senior Member

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Posts: 157
Location: So. California
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Control,...
Grinder: Rancilio MD-50
Drip: Aeropress
Roaster: HG/BM

Posted Fri Aug 8, 2008, 10:34am
Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

Champagne_Powder Said:

I really admire all the great creative work ya guys are doing for the Silvia.
Such a shame most of us aren't that good with metal and soldering as you are. You think these mods are fairly easy to create/install even without proper soldering knowledge?

Posted August 8, 2008 link

I don't think there's any soldering involved - these are all compression connectors (and/or threaded pipe fittings) that just screw on....

TyB
Senior Member

Joined: 7 Jan 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Oly "it's the water"
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Silvia
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Vac Pot: nope
Drip: only a little
Roaster: Olympia Roaster Co.

Posted Fri Jan 9, 2009, 7:42pm Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

....So, half a year later and.... nothing? How are the tests going, have you discarded the pre-infusion? What did you finaly decide was the preferable delay, the 4 second water hammer arrester or the 7 second? The links and pictures are much appreciated by the way. Some years behind your learning curve and a new owner of a second hand Silvia. I have been wearing out my search button trying to get up to speed. The last 3 months have been spent learning how to pull repeatable shots. So now with fresh roasted, medium, or old beans I can repeat shots; sometimes I can even adjust and improve the flavor. Now I find that I've followed the links and placed orders for some npt fittings and a pressure guage... or two. When my wife finds out I plan on placing the blame fully on..... the OP. So before I go off to home depot to harass the speckled face kid in the fittings isle, any more info you are willing to share?

TagTeamJesus
Senior Member

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 355
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: LM Shot Brewer MP; PID...
Grinder: Kony E; Macap MC4
Drip: v60

Posted Fri Jan 9, 2009, 11:49pm Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

Hi, TyB, Thanks for waking this thread up. I have not discarded the pre-infusion, i.e. slower ramp up in pressure....I just had a strange diversion in there where I was figuring out which machine would be my upgrade, so most of my playing around has been with other machines. I admittedly pull most my Silvia shots with the arrester not engaged (faster ramp up to pressure). And I still would like more time to play with the arrester engaged, but here are my preliminary thoughts on this mod: As a recap, it takes about 6 seconds to hit full pressure without the arrester; it takes about 9-10 seconds for full pressure with the arrester. From my conversations with George, I think he preferred the arrester shots. From my tastings so far, I have preferred non-arrester shots, at least thus far. That makes one vote for each side. Taste is subjective, but thus far the arrester shots seem a little more dulled to me, and the non-arrester shots taste more forward and complex, whatever that means. This might sound absurd, but this is still only my first impression. I think the mod is brilliant, worthwhile, and I sure am glad I have it because I like to experiment with variables. Thus far, though, I give the nod to the 6 second ramp up to pressure without the arrester engaged. As always, thoughts, objections, and etc's are welcome. Maybe your last post is the kick in the rear I needed to get experimenting again. But eep! PID Alexia is now on my counter. At some point, Silvia will need another home! Have you seen George's pressure gauge mod, measuring pressure at the puck? I love this mod. You don't need a panel mounted gauge if you order a simple portafilter gauge, but this has that racecar look and it's very responsive to changes in pressure throughout the pull. It allowed me to see my factory Silvia was set too high at 10 bars and to adjust it down to 9. Also, it helps in being able to understand what's going on with the arresters. Gauge measuring pressure at the puck: "Silvia mod: panel-mounted gauge measuring pressure at the puck" Let me know if you need help with anything, and I'll do what I can.

Posted Sat Jan 10, 2009, 4:18am Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

Hey Jesus, Thanks for the information. Hmmm, well I am un-able to add anything subjective for now, but I appreciate that you took the time to continue the conversation. Parts are on the way, so after install I might know more. On a related topic, what was the effect on puck channeling that you noticed? It seems that my best (sweetest) shots are always on the verge of turning into spurting squirters, which is why I started reading up on the whole pre-infusion thing in the first place. That whole fine line between grind size, tamp pressure, and coffee quantity. Due you think utilizing the arrester is kinder gentler on puck integrity? If you go either light on the amount of grinds or light on the tamping, does the pre infusion help reduce the tendancy to channel? If I am reading you right, to you the infussion is dulling the high notes. What about the mouth feel? I'm finding I can preserve the high notes with a lighter packing, but have to cut the pull short or it gets pretty watery for the last 10 seconds. Thanks, appreciate the discussion.

JeepinGeo
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Dec 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Campbell, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto, Silvia
Grinder: Mazzer SJ (x2), Rocky DL

Posted Tue Jan 13, 2009, 11:32am Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

Hi TyB, Sorry to jump back in here so late. Been busy with my latest Silvia pre-infusion mod, pictured below. It's a twelve spring heavy duty custom chamber device capable of gently absorbing 400 bar working pressure allowing for a 3 hour 12 minute pre-infusion cycle. Super smooth pours but I had to upgrade the 41 watt Ulka to DOHC stroker. :) Actually, it's the new cylinder head for my '01 Jeep TJ to replace the cracked factory original. But that's a different story and a whole different forum. I've traded in my Lothario seduction days with Silvia for a knock down, drag out, boxing match with my new sparring partner Alex. He's a formidable opponent for sure! But back to Silvia. I ended up with a combination of 1 long arrester and 1 short arrester. Not because it provided the optimal amount of perfect pre-infusion rate but because mounting a long one on the left side contacted the boiler. I am still convinced (although it's been at least 2 months since Silvia has pulled a shot) that the pre-infusion helps me get reduced channeling, better looking, more consistent, and better tasting pulls than without. TTG brings up a great point about the pre-infusion shots tasting a bit more dulled to him. Jon prefers SOs and so far I have spent most of my espresso time working with blends, although I am just getting into experimenting with SOs (and liking them). Jon sent some BB Koratie Natural that is making some very distinct, interesting flavors both in shots and milk drinks. But I'm pulling those on Alex so I can't compare with Silvia. Sound like you've got that certain talent (disorder?) that compels you to go the extra mile. If you're already sourcing the parts, congratulations! You will certainly be rewarded with the knowledge you gain and the sheer fun you will have. And please, by all means, place full blame on me! Helping reduce spousal pain is what we're here for. We have to support each other! George (Click for larger image)

Posted Tue Jan 13, 2009, 1:46pm Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

Heh heh, You caught the 'Lothario of the ladies' pre edit comment, it got so quite in here I thought I had surpassed the poor taste meter. From the picture I thought you were working on a 2 stage injection, 6 head espresso lever machine with extra heat sink capacity to reduce the need for temperature surfing. I'm finding the SO's very tasty, not so savory as the blends, but bright splashes of berries and florals. Counter usually looks like an a village of espresso beans were wiped out by a tidal wave, but the flavors are the strongest without being muddy. Have you found any more information on pressure profilling? I've been reading everything that comes up on search, but most of that is someone asking for information too. I haven't read any actual findings about using different pressure rampings. Oh, yes I am a mod bug, always tinkering with something. A mech engr student as well, just haven't found what I want to do with that yet. The HVAC world I tried, but that is all babysitting the contractors and doing fast and dirty design. Not very satisfying. Thanks for the discussion.

Posted Tue Jan 13, 2009, 2:07pm
Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

TyB Said:

You caught the 'Lothario of the ladies' pre edit comment, it got so quite in here I thought I had surpassed the poor taste meter.

Posted January 13, 2009 link

No, dude, I was only quiet because I was packing and flying back to San Francisco. Your pre-edit post was amazing. I miss it. sniff, sniff. =-) On my meter, poor taste doesn't start to extract until around 100 bars or so.

I have never found much on pressure profiling either, and a page back in this thread I didn't get any responses as to my inquiry about which profile would be best...6 vs. 10 seconds to full pressure...or which would lead to what kind of taste profile. I guess that's up to our own taste buds.

There is that interesting new espresso machine, Slayer, that I saw mentioned on H-B. I think it's an attempt to really make pressure dynamic during the pull. Here is the Slayer web-site:
http://www.slayerespresso.com/

Posted Tue Jan 13, 2009, 7:48pm Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

Weeel then, glad to hear the skin is thick and durable, but regret to hear you are unable to multitask while ensuring you have 2 months of survival gear for traveling cross country. WOW!! I had not seen the slayer site before, just wow! Here I was thinkin I was all tricky cracking open the steam wand as I pulled my shots to replicate an infusion profile. Also, towards the end to divert water flow away from the puck to avoid the watery runs, yet get the last bit of flavor. The whole 20 to 30 second ideal pull is starting to fall to the wayside in my thinking. My pull clock currently is the boiler re heat light, as long as it is off I'm doing ok flavor wise. As soon as it comes on thermal control is all but at an end. Listening to the pneumatics in the background while the slayer crew are mining sweet, full bodied, aromatic, GOLD from their pucks is making me turn a vivid, fluorescent, neon green! He he, I'm starting to think that those double boilers aren't as dynamic as a plain ol Silvia. You almost need some fancy pneumatics to control the pressure/flow through your pucks with those fancy/expensive machines. Well, I need to sift through some more of the slayer site, as well as digest some more of my thinking on flow/pressure control. My mind has suddenly been freed from time constraints. Time to review the Chemisty of Flavor book for the compounds of those berry flavors I like so much. Which extraction conditions do they reside in? That area of pressure temp is where I want to be I think.

JeepinGeo
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Dec 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Campbell, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto, Silvia
Grinder: Mazzer SJ (x2), Rocky DL

Posted Tue Jan 13, 2009, 9:05pm
Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

TyB Said:

You caught the 'Lothario of the ladies' pre edit comment, it got so quite in here I thought I had surpassed the poor taste meter.

Posted January 13, 2009 link

I agree with Jon, that was some good stuff you put in that paragraph. The part about 'getting bored and moving on' ... on target again! So no more post editing, OK? :)

Have you guys seen this post from Greg Scace on H-B: Click Here (www.home-barista.com)

Some interesting info in there. And yes, it did cross my mind to try this out, too. Maybe someday. I'd sure like to hang with those guys at Slayer.

George

Posted Wed Jan 14, 2009, 2:00am Subject: Re: Silvia mod: E61 Style Pre Infusion Chamber

"by gscace on Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:08 pm" "I dunno what you and Andy are specifying for shot volume and transferred mass, but it's late and I've got a bunch of sh** to do tomorrow, so I'm going to bed. I'll get more data tomorrow when a couple of folks show up for coffee, smoked salmon, and beer. Dunno what is the teaser for what. I'll also do comparisons with the straight line pressure thang, and I'll post the profile I'm using, when I learn how to post an Excel chart. " and and.... Jesus, did you all just go out an buy hx machines to be cool because no one cares or thinks the old single boiler silvia is cool anymore? No wonder the girls are all miffed (Silvia, Alexia), you get them all dressed up to go out and party... then go with a second machine, call her a boy name and start talking about wrestling or boxing or or.. something manly. Way to smooth talk the ladies Don Juans. Sheesh, glad I got that out of my system. I kinda lost it there. A whole year almost gone and wasted, never to be gained back again and nothing in forums to show a newb like me the way forward. Well and the fact that I'm in Wa and Greg appears to be in Md, not to mention I missed out on the beer, pizza, and free espresso. I think the quest to test got everyone bogged down and their heads all started to hurt with finding a way forward. Looking at the problem from another viewpoint might help. I know what compounds make a desired flavor, I know what extraction method isolated those compounds. At what temperature and pressure do those desired compounds freely fall out of the puck into my cup in the greatest abundance and concentration. Now, like pasteurization, If the temp is too high those delicate compounds fall all apart to be lost in the flavor collector of shame (kitchen sink). Likewise too low of temp or pressure and the compounds aren't free to come to the espresso party. So starting slow and gaining speed later. If I can smell the delicate blueberry flavor of goodness in the roasted beans, I can with care and perseverance extract that wonderfull essence in the shape of a following rush of flavor after taste. If the pack is too tight, muddy barely detectable berry. If the pack is too light, gusher, watery no berry either. Adjusting grind and quantity while ignoring pressure, I've fallen back on 28 seconds to a double. When the beans are in the zone, after explosions of berry flavors, but as the beans get older the burst of flavor diminishes. I've found by cheating (cracking open the steam valve) early in the pre ramp, during, and at the end. I can coax those berry flavors back into a strong abundance once more. My playing around, based on all the friendly people here, lead me to use a finer grind and a lighter tamp to get at those desired flavor compounds. All those spurting squirters and foaming gushers that blasted across my counter and ended so disgraceful in the collector of shame made me start to get a little discouraged. Silvia, I thought, you are a cruel cruel mistress. No idea of pressure, a wide... band thermal control, and a vibrator for a... flow control! I have control of flow control, I control the flow the flow to the sink! Light bulb! That pump is blowing out my puck, and well, I'm not into puck.... errr blowing. The opv is single minded, but I'm not. So just like driving a stick, put it in gear and throttle the flow. Watching the nectar like a peeping tom through the bottomless PF and repeated testing I learned to drive the flavor mobile. Cheaper than a rotary pump with 3 phase control, or a 2 grand mechanical marvel (still jealous) with pre infusion. Just go with the flow, its all I can control, till the flavory is savory and the after taste is full of blueberry. Instrumentation is just so expensive. Anyone up to sponsorship for some instrumantion?

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