hedgehogfrenzy Senior Member Joined: 5 Dec 2007 Posts: 7 Location: Tampa, FL Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Nov 26, 2008, 1:24pm Subject: Opinions on Steam Control PID for Silvia
OK, so I know I'm going to PID my Silvia. At least I won't have to tinker with temp. surfing. Anything I can do to give myself a level playing field is a good thing. But, I haven't seen any talk about whether or not the extra time and $$ are worth it for a PID with steam control. We're talking $50, which is a decent amount of beans, etc.
I've read that you can get great steam control by just opening your steam wand before the temp your boiler shuts off to avoid a boiler cycle, and the PID makes that easy since it does it the same temp on your machine every time. Of course, set it and forget it is great also.
Anyone have any opinions (wait, what am I asking? Opinions around here?)
Cool, thanks for the help. I did a pretty through search and didn't see this covered before, so if it has, sorry to be repetitive.
Winkler Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Posts: 10 Location: Denver, CO Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia w/ PID Grinder: Rancilio Rocky Drip: Cuisinart Grind and Brew Roaster: Coffee Roaster Club 1lb Drum
Posted Tue Dec 2, 2008, 2:34pm Subject: Re: Opinions on Steam Control PID for Silvia
I am also very interested in this. A PID is at the top of my Xmas list this year and I was contemplating whether to get steam control.
I think just having the temp read out on the PID should satisfy me. That alone will take the guess work out of when the boiler light is about to go off. However, I keep wondering if I am missing some big advantage to having the steam control.
hedgehogfrenzy Senior Member Joined: 5 Dec 2007 Posts: 7 Location: Tampa, FL Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Dec 2, 2008, 8:42pm Subject: Re: Opinions on Steam Control PID for Silvia
I decided to go ahead go with the steam control. I bought the Auber Instruments solution, and since he sells them on eBay, I was able to use the Microsoft cash back (30% off) program to get a pretty good deal. I figured for $40 extra dollars, I might as well go with the solution that gives me complete control over the machine. I figured...why temperature surf at all, ever if it's only for steaming. Plus, now I won't want to ever upgrade.
zircote Senior Member Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Posts: 16 Location: Phoenixville, PA Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Tue Dec 16, 2008, 2:42pm Subject: Re: Opinions on Steam Control PID for Silvia
I recently PIDed my Francis Francis machine. I used a Auber PID and RTD. For steam I modified a design from http://www.skenedesign.com/Silvia/ The idea is to trick the PID with a small DC voltage. With the voltage applied to the J1 terminals, the SSR turns on and will bring the temp up to the alarm on set temp. The alarm off is set to 1 degree above the alarm on ie: 256 degrees AH1(alarm on)and 257 degrees AL1(alarm off). When the temp reaches the alarm off set point the SSR switches off. When steaming you want the heating element on but you do not want the machine to over heat. So, set the alarm temps carefully.
For the DC voltage I used a cell phone charger I had laying around. The original steam button on the machine triggers the charger.
It supplies 5 volts to the J1 terminal. Skenedesign uses 12 volts.
SeattleMark Senior Member Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 10 Location: Seattle, WA Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: PID Silvia Grinder: Rocky
Posted Tue Dec 16, 2008, 3:27pm Subject: Re: Opinions on Steam Control PID for Silvia
I'll start by saying that I don't steam too often and normally just make straight shots. With that disclosed, I don't feel it is necessary to PID the steam control.
With a PID for brew temp, you will still be able to read the boiler temp when the steam function is on. I generally just start steaming when the display reads about 270-275 degrees. All you have to do is test it once to find where you want to start steaming and use that point every time. There's no real surfing involved. Its just not necessary for normal steaming. (I can see that it might be useful if you plan to steam multiple pitchers back to back, but who does that outside of a commercial setting?)
My other reason for avoiding the PID steam control is that it starts to over-complicate the machine. Not that a PID isn't already over-complicating the machine, but expanding the control of the PID to steaming just creates more places for more things to go wrong.
I've had the Auber PID for just under a year now and it's worked flawlessly. I have a Silvia made before 2006, so I was able to use the screw-type thermocouple sensor, which they claim is more accurate than the normal thermocouple. I'm sure the PIDkits.com PID unit is a better quality unit, but the Auber unit has worked flawlessly so far for less than half the price. I also like the housing and placement of the Auber unit better than any other kit out there; it just seems to blend in the best.
I hope this helps in your decision making. Either way, you're not going to go wrong PIDing your machine, it really does make a world of difference.
zircote Senior Member Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Posts: 16 Location: Phoenixville, PA Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Tue Dec 16, 2008, 8:37pm Subject: Re: Opinions on Steam Control PID for Silvia
When you use the PID for steaming via the J1 connections you are not using it for tight temp control. The controller is not using its PID programming at this time. The idea is to get the boiler hot enough to produce dry steam, via the alarm temp setting, and to keep it from over heating, via the alarm off. It is not working the same as for the brew temp, via the set point, which uses the PID program to maintain the tight requirement for the brewing. If the machine has 2 thermostats, one for brewing and one for steaming, like most machines. It is much easier to use the PID just for the brewing and maintain the steaming T-stat. The Francis Francis uses a temp controller and RTD. So, when mine went south, and I decided to install the PID, it was necessary to use the Alarm to get the machine to steam or buy a fancier multi set point PID. That would be complicated and more expensive. When you start the steaming, open the valve and drain off the water and the steam starts coming out drier and is ready for the milk pitcher, the boiler is working flat out. The element will most likely stay on the full time you take to finish the foam on one pitcher. When you close the steam valve the temp will rise quickly. The longer you steam the more likely the boiler will reach the alarm off set point or T-stat set point, tripping the SSR keeping the boiler within its safe limit.
The real caution with a small single boiler and steaming a lot of milk would be running it out of water. While steaming no new water is being added to the boiler to replenish what is being used. Consequently, as you steam for a longer period of time you run the risk of over heating the heating element as the water level drop.
Winkler Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Posts: 10 Location: Denver, CO Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia w/ PID Grinder: Rancilio Rocky Drip: Cuisinart Grind and Brew Roaster: Coffee Roaster Club 1lb Drum
Posted Wed Dec 31, 2008, 10:34am Subject: Re: Opinions on Steam Control PID for Silvia
For those of you with the Steam option, what temp do you have the alarm off set to? Mine came from Auber set at 285F. I was thinking of setting it higher since I am not that impressed with the steaming power. I felt like I had more steam before I installed the PID.
BTW. The PID is heavenly. I can't believe I lived without it for so long. Temp surfing is for the birds! Almost every shot I have pulled since installing the PID is great. Haven't poured one down the sink yet!
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 