irrelevancy Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2011 Posts: 3 Location: Singapore Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011, 9:46pm Subject: Electrical shock from machine
Hi there
I bought an Andreja Premium a few months ago and it has been working fine. However, when I touched the machine this morning (after about 1 hour warmup via timer), I got a small electrical shock.
I thought it was some static of sorts, but continued to get shocked the next 3 times I touched it (from any part of the metal shell). Even after switching it off and on, the electric charge was still there. The machine still worked fine, just that I couldn't touch any metal parts with my bare hands.
I haven't moved it at all so there's no reason for something to have come loose. It's a european machine (240V) using a 2 pin plug.
I assume the next step is to open it up and look for a loose/bare wire?
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011, 10:26pm Subject: Re: Electrical shock from machine
If it was a bare wire you probably would have been electrocuted. First, the machine should probably be grounded. I wonder if it had the incorrect plug installed? Was it new? I know many European appliances (at least in England) are sold without plugs due to lack of standardization.. at least it use to be that way.
Ungrounded... 240 volts.. no GFCI? I would have someone who knows what they are doing check it out. While it could be an inductive charge, it could also be a faulty heating element or other problem that will kill you. I have had a LOT of great coffee, but none I would literally die for.
Ian Moderator Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 1,401 Location: England
Espresso: Euro2000,Rancilio Grinder: Mazzer,La Cimbali Vac Pot: Cona-->CraigA Drip: Belgique for emergencies Roaster: Primas with variac
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2011, 1:28am Subject: Re: Electrical shock from machine
frcn Said:
If it was a bare wire you probably would have been electrocuted. First, the machine should probably be grounded. I wonder if it had the incorrect plug installed? Was it new? I know many European appliances (at least in England) are sold without plugs due to lack of standardization.. at least it use to be that way.
Ungrounded... 240 volts.. no GFCI? I would have someone who knows what they are doing check it out. While it could be an inductive charge, it could also be a faulty heating element or other problem that will kill you. I have had a LOT of great coffee, but none I would literally die for.
As you're still getting shocks with it turned off, I would suspect it is static especially if you have synthetic flooring. Maybe try some different footwear and if that doesn't make a difference then you really need a voltmeter.
Hi Randy, it used to be like that until the H&S nannies got their way... it was a gauge of your manhood how fast you could wire up a three-pin plug. Now they come moulded on (and probably inspected by someone in a hard hat, flouro vest and government licence).
I kind of thought so, but then wondered why an appliance that "mixes" water and line current wasn't grounded. With all the H&S concerns, laws, and regulations, it seems odd in this case. I wonder if the machine was purchased used, and the PO messed with it for some reason...?
MattINLA Senior Member Joined: 2 Oct 2009 Posts: 69 Location: Glendale Expertise: Professional
Posted Sun Nov 13, 2011, 8:13pm Subject: Re: Electrical shock from machine
LATE FOLLOW UP I BET you are running into a very subtle problem I have run into as a professional espresso machine technician. You may very well have a HEATING ELEMENT that is slightly shorting to ground - but still works FINE! The TEST of this is - see if a GFCI trips with this machine, sure it does. Disconnect the heating element if it no longer causes a shock, THIS is definitely the problem.
WobblyGoblin Senior Member Joined: 6 Jul 2005 Posts: 14 Location: London, UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011, 4:11am Subject: Re: Electrical shock from machine
You have probably solved the problem by now, but if not I may be able to help.
I think I had a similar problem - EU (2-pin) plug but plugging into UK (3-pin) sockets. When my machine was turned on at the plug, but turned off on the machine I received a mild shock from the metal of the machine. Just an unpleasant tingling. When the machine was turned on the problem didn't occur. After a bit of research online it seemed the most likely cause was a poorly grounded plug. Sure, enough, I changed the plug adapter and the problem stopped.
I think this would be worth a try for you. However, if in any doubt I would definitely call in an electrician - as someone previously said, coffee is great but probably not worth dying over.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,645 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011, 7:30am Subject: Re: Electrical shock from machine
Like I posted in my rebuild silvia thread, it still worked and heated the water but it isn't exactly isolated from contact with water anymore, causing a real hazard to anyone working with the machine.
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In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011, 5:56pm Subject: Re: Electrical shock from machine
Hello, irrelevancy
Using a 2 pin plug for this machine is not a good idea. However - is it a "Schuko" type plug, which has the earth (ground) connectors not as pins but on the edge of the plug ? - if so, not all plug converters on the market (especially the "travel" ones) connect to these properly, and it leaves you with an unearthed appliance. Fully connecting converters can be bought though.
Best solutions (in no particular order):-
Have the plug replaced with a proper 3-pin plug. I think the standard in Singapore is a 3 flat pin fused plug the same as we use in the UK ? If you live in a country that uses fused plugs (they are fused for a very good reason which is to do with the type of cabling structure used in those countries), you must never use a non-fused plug on an appliance, unless it is used via a fused plug converter.
Have the machine checked over by someone with a meter that is able to detect even tiny current leakages (from the heater element in particular).
Run the device only from a socket which is RCD (Residual Current Device) protected, or use a plug-in type RCD unit between the socket and the plug of the appliance. If this trips, there is definitely a current leakage somewhere which has to be fixed. Most likely suspect is the heater.
Please don't take risks with 230v - or any voltage for that matter - I was always taught "Volts only jolts, it's mills that kills".
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