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Gaggia Classic SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,982
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Sep 5, 2012, 10:46am
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

Wall Warts as DC chargers are affectionately known are convenient to use.  Find a small one and use an appropriate switch for switched power.

I used a cell phone charger.  They output about 5.5 6.2 volts and that is plenty for the SSR which requires about 4 32v DC.  I used a cutting disk on a Dremel and shortened the AC plug legs to about 3/8. A 1/4 female spade gently massaged open will fit over the AC male leg, X2.  Each on a 24 or 26 awg lead to plug the DC source in.  Tab it to a main plug incoming and the other leg to the appropriate switch, steam or with my system brew.  That switches on the AC to the AC DC source which then outputs DC to the alarm function.  The alarm function in the PID is then functioning to control the DC positive leg by opening or closing with the set temperatures.

On the output side, cut off the output coupler and solder in connections with the remaining shortened output lead.  I used "Spades" since I bought a bag of them.  The spades or other connectors allow for removal of the DC source without removing the wiring from the PID or SSR.  You will have negative to go to the SSR and a Positive to go through the alarm control and then to SSR with a diode as previoulsy noted.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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tasseloff
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 229
Location: Sherbrooke, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Sep 5, 2012, 6:57pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

D4F Said:

Wall Warts as DC chargers are affectionately known are convenient to use.  Find a small one and use an appropriate switch for switched power.

I used a cell phone charger.  They output about 5.5 6.2 volts and that is plenty for the SSR which requires about 4 32v DC.  I used a cutting disk on a Dremel and shortened the AC plug legs to about 3/8. A 1/4 female spade gently massaged open will fit over the AC male leg, X2.  Each on a 24 or 26 awg lead to plug the DC source in.  Tab it to a main plug incoming and the other leg to the appropriate switch, steam or with my system brew.  That switches on the AC to the AC DC source which then outputs DC to the alarm function.  The alarm function in the PID is then functioning to control the DC positive leg by opening or closing with the set temperatures.

On the output side, cut off the output coupler and solder in connections with the remaining shortened output lead.  I used "Spades" since I bought a bag of them.  The spades or other connectors allow for removal of the DC source without removing the wiring from the PID or SSR.  You will have negative to go to the SSR and a Positive to go through the alarm control and then to SSR with a diode as previoulsy noted.

Posted September 5, 2012 link

I have to ask, where did you actually put that DC charger? Inside your Gaggia? Outside next to the PID controller? Do you have a picture of how its setup by any chance?
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,982
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Thu Sep 6, 2012, 1:23pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

Inside the machine of course; want the wall wart to be a machine wart?

I will try a photo here but it is a bit small and busy.  Probably easily understood if you know the Gaggia Classic.  PID is off the back on a roll of paper towels visible top, for orientation.  One charger is in a box of EPP foam about 1/8 to 3/16" thick.  The other is obviously naked.  Both have the DC ends cut short and replaced with spade connectors, female and shrink tube.  These connect to "alarm" wires.  You can easily see the AC wiring to the chargers with 1/4 female spades and shrink to make the machine end of the AC "plug."  The boxed one was my first used and fit on the floor over the cool water tank against the pump (the floor is the undersupport for the pump), the 3 way and the space surrounded by the cool water tubing.  The lower L indent in the foam is the rest against the 3 way.  The other naked charger sits vertical, AC legs up, against the R wall, held by the return from OPV tubing.  No room for insulation and it is farther away from heat and vibration.  Both work well, no problems being internal.  Nothing shows, but the machine is a little full.  I do not use the top water fill, and fill the tank from the side as the machine sits under a cupboard.  Easier to fill from the side than pull it all out.  I considered removng the funnel, but everything fits.

I PM'd you photos, to try to make sense to a Silvia guy :)

D4F: Wall Warts resize.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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tasseloff
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 229
Location: Sherbrooke, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Sep 6, 2012, 5:48pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

Thanks for the shots.

I think there's probably a little room in the Silvia than in the Gaggia, but I guess I'll see once I start assembling things.

I just bought a second SSR on ebay (the one you pointed to me): Click Here (cgi.ebay.com)

This will also mean I'll need some more big wires since I'll take the power directly from the steam switch without converting it.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,982
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Thu Sep 6, 2012, 6:58pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

5 - 6' should do of the 14 awg.  I can't quite visualize the length from SSR to the connection.  Still fine wire from the switch to PID alarm posts and back to SSR.  Just like the small wire carrying the AC to the PID to run it.  The only 14g is SSR output.

I guess that we agreed that the second SSR needed to be AC activated, since that is the link.  Now you do not have to find diodes.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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tasseloff
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 229
Location: Sherbrooke, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Sep 6, 2012, 7:17pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

D4F Said:

5 - 6' should do of the 14 awg.  I can't quite visualize the length from SSR to the connection.  Still fine wire from the switch to PID alarm posts and back to SSR.  Just like the small wire carrying the AC to the PID to run it.  The only 14g is SSR output.

I guess that we agreed that the second SSR needed to be AC activated, since that is the link.  Now you do not have to find diodes.

Posted September 6, 2012 link

Hmm ok, so only 14awg for SSR output.

I had actually bought the diodes at Radioshack already but I'll return them. If I understand correctly, the diodes were only necessary because the skene design  was using the alarm to trip the same SSR (connecting on the same wire), and prevent the current from going back into the PID box?
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,982
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Thu Sep 6, 2012, 7:34pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

Yep, SSR output is the load.  Input amp/watts whether AC or DC is minimal.  Diodes were to block, in this case, in the Skene diagram as 2 inputs on one post.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,982
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Mon Sep 10, 2012, 7:43pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

A little more on hooking up or wiring the PID.  This is probably very similar on many machines, not just Gaggia.

I find that the Auber 1512A lists power consumption as <2 watts which is 0.018amps at 110v. 30awg is listed for up to 0.86amps chassis wiring or 0.142 for power transmission (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm).  The DC output to the DC SSR is 40ma at 8v DC.  SSR AC is using the AC as a pass through to be switched on and off and I believe in only figured in the power consumption of the PID.  Perhaps more that you wanted to know about wire.  I assumed that they were using 110 120v.  30 awg and larger seems safe, so it is what you can find and work with knowing that you need to get into the PID box.  Of course you can enlarge the box hole, but small is flexible and easy to work with in a bundle.

I ran a test on my Gaggia for machine temperature. I put a thermocouple over the boiler where the closest wire is located. With 30 minutes of stabilization and then a couple minutes of steam, the thermocouple read 174F which is about 79C. I cannot advise about using less than 105C which is probably called for by some code or rule for wiring inside equipment. Even the computer ribbon cable is mostly that to go inside a computer.

The spade connectors obviously come in different sizes, both ends of the connector, spade and wire size. You need 1/4 or 6.x metric to replace the thermostat. You need 14 awg on those from the SSR. You can buy some for smaller wire, but when soldering, it did not make a difference to me. Crimping will probably have to match much more closely for wire to spade end. I stuck with the 14 awg ones to have only one size and package. Also, some of the wires go to spade piggyback connectors and I happened to find those at 14 awg.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,982
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Fri Oct 5, 2012, 9:30pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

D4F Said:

Yep, SSR output is the load.  Input amp/watts whether AC or DC is minimal.

Posted September 6, 2012 link

Got an interesting email question about this.  I had not seen actual specifications on an AC to AC SSR.  I found a couple specific SSR's that gave AC currents/wattage as milliamps on the signal side.  The Wikipedia explanation of LED and photoactivation seem to also indicate low amperage on the signal side.  In addition, a fairly concise explanation of how SSRs work.  That is the reason for small wires such as 24 - 26awg, yet 14 awg load side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_relay

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,982
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Thu Oct 11, 2012, 10:01am
Subject: Re: Gaggia SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

A little more PID information on P,I, and D values.  The PID simplification approach, or how I think of it after some reading.  P is basically the % of the temperature range of the sensor that is controlled.  If the range is 1500 degrees and the P is 5, then 75 degrees are controlled.  Meaning is that you get full heat on, cold, and only start blipping it on and off in the P range.  Smaller P is faster heating, but too small gives some overshoot and oscillation.  If you had a process that failed with over temperature, then adjust according.  Since the PID will show a stable temperature of its sensor long before the whole machine mass is stable, allow a little overshoot and little oscillation and you may heat and recover faster.  Obviously you do not want a lot of oscillation, or you cannot pick a brew temperature.  I and D help to damp that.  

You see a not damped cycle on your alarm function and the steam temperature will overshoot and oscillate a little even if you set the on and off temperature 1 degree apart.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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