emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,723 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Tue Dec 25, 2012, 9:27am Subject: HELP! new problem...stuck valve? clogged pump intake or airlock? Duetto II
Well...merry f'ing christmas to me!
EDITTED: I made 2 lattes and 1 cappa for my family, then did a backflush, made my sink shot to clear the E61 of Cafitza, then went to pull my own drink and early into the shot my machine made a nasty humming noise (was kind of like a shudder) and I watched my pump pressure drop to 0. I got about half a shot before the extracted trickled to a halt - when the group pressure went dead. Given the way this happened, I suspect that it's likely something clogged, but could it be the pump? I'm comfortable getting into it and fixing things myself, but don't really know where to start, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
I got this new from CCS about 1 year ago and I run it in reservoir mode.
Thanks in advance!
Merry Christmas to everyone else - the good kind, not the kind I just described :)
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 924 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:39pm Subject: Re: HELP! clogged E61??? deap pump??? Duetto II
Information required.
Is the motor humming (running) but nothing coming out, or is it stopped?
Is yours the model with the pressure switch under the tank or the magnetic float switch and hall effect sensor
The pressure sensor in the Duetto is just after the pump, so 0 pressure means just that....0 pressure, nothing clogged in the group itself would cause 0 pressure. If the motors stopped, not humming and nothings coming out, it's most likely the tank sensor, perhaps a wire has come off, it's broke, hall effect sensor failed etc. Worth bypassing it and seeing if the motor starts up.
If the motors running and 0 pressure, with nothing coming out.....then it could be an airlock....take the input pipe and squirt some water down it (use something that's a push fit into the pipe so it's under pressure) and run the pump (as you try and squirt water) see if you can get it to prime. The Duettos don't usually need priming and will draw, but I have known it happen on occasion. If the motor is running and the aforementioned does not work, then your probably in trouble as this means 0 pump output. Unless the pump has popped off the mounting, then it could be a failure of the graphite vanes within the pump, or an outside chance of something blocking the input feed.
However you just need to provide more information (as you can see from 1 and 2 above, I don't know those facts) as the pumps and motors on the Duetto are not prone to failure....
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,723 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Tue Dec 25, 2012, 1:11pm Subject: Re: HELP! clogged E61??? deap pump??? Duetto II
DavecUK Said:
Information required.
Is the motor humming (running) but nothing coming out, or is it stopped? Is yours the model with the pressure switch under the tank or the magnetic float switch and hall effect sensor
The pressure sensor in the Duetto is just after the pump, so 0 pressure means just that....0 pressure, nothing clogged in the group itself would cause 0 pressure. If the motors stopped, not humming and nothings coming out, it's most likely the tank sensor, perhaps a wire has come off, it's broke, hall effect sensor failed etc. Worth bypassing it and seeing if the motor starts up.
If the motors running and 0 pressure, with nothing coming out.....then it could be an airlock....take the input pipe and squirt some water down it (use something that's a push fit into the pipe so it's under pressure) and run the pump (as you try and squirt water) see if you can get it to prime. The Duettos don't usually need priming and will draw, but I have known it happen on occasion. If the motor is running and the aforementioned does not work, then your probably in trouble as this means 0 pump output. Unless the pump has popped off the mounting, then it could be a failure of the graphite vanes within the pump, or an outside chance of something blocking the input feed.
However you just need to provide more information (as you can see from 1 and 2 above, I don't know those facts) as the pumps and motors on the Duetto are not prone to failure....
Thanks so very much! Motor is humming and the machine seems to definitely be trying to do something. Mine has the magnetic float. Will get into the reservoir and look at the visible portion of the line for air (though I'd guess that wouldn't tell me squat if I don't see any). aNd remove the ion exchange resin from the line. Then report back.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,723 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Tue Dec 25, 2012, 1:24pm Subject: Re: HELP! clogged E61??? deap pump??? Duetto II
Amazing! Turns out the low reservoir sensor failed (I just checked it too and it was NOT accidentally turned off). I'll have to get in there and make sure a wire didn't come loose, but the reservoir was bone dry and simply refilling seems to have solved the problem. I'll post back once more after the machine has warmed up and I've gotten a chance to run a couple of test shots (but with the bf disc in place it did come back up to 9 bar). I'll also report once I get a chance to check into the reservoir alarm issue.
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 924 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Dec 25, 2012, 5:18pm Subject: Re: HELP! clogged E61??? deap pump??? Duetto II
I really don't like the magnetic sensors, same as in the Andreja. I would have much preferred they used the sensor method via the conductivity of water as the Gicar RL30 in the earlier models was sensitive enough to directly detect this via the same connection they used to use for the tank micro switch (based on weight) They could have also fitted a full sized 2.9l internal tank as I did.....but they didn't?
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,723 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Sun Dec 30, 2012, 2:30pm Subject: Re: HELP! clogged E61??? deap pump??? Duetto II
I just wanted to post a follow-up to explain what I found out actually happened.
What seems to have occurred is that while the boiler was trying to fill during a shot, the reservoir went dry. Before the alarm/safety shutoff system could activate, the pump sucked in a bunch of air, and the machine shut down. When I opened the top of the machine to check on the magnetic float, I saw the empty reservoir. So, I filled the reservoir and then turned on the machine to see what would happen. The pump came on and filled the boiler, and then when the pump shut off I drew water through the group. Then I inserted the pf handle with a backflush disc and the pressure gauge climbed to 9 bar. I then pulled a shot and all was well. The machine has functioned perfectly since. I even let the reservoir run dry to test the alarm/safety shutoff, and it worked just like it's supposed to.
I think the likelihood of a repeat scenario is extremely low, and hopefully, this won't happen to anyone else. But just in case, there's now this thread that explains it. Of course, as mentioned earlier, a plumbed in machine shouldn't ever have this problem. I wish I could find a reliable plumber near me...so far, I've gotten one guy to look at my house and write up an estimate (which I never received) and another guy who said he'd call me back...and as I once mentioned before in another thread, there's no room at my coffee (formerly wine) bar for a 5 gallon bottle.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,723 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 7:26am Subject: HELP! clogged pump intake??? valve stuck open??? Duetto II
THIS IS WHERE THE NEW PROBLEM BEGINS. I used this older thread because it has a couple of other answered questions, like reservoir safety mechanism.
This am, my Duetto stopped giving me group pressure. I made 2 lattes without a hitch, then went to pull my shots for my extremely large cappuccino (it has 2 doubles in it). The group pressure when I tried to pull my first double read 0, but there was a considerably decreased amount of espresso coming from the bottom of the naked pf. I stopped it and switched out the pf for the blind basket. Things didn't really change much...pressure gauge still read 0...but I did see a small release into the drip tray after the backflush (though less than typical). I can definitely hear the motor humming and it seems like the pump is on. However, I found the pump was not drawing water. I made sure my reservoir was full, then disconnected the hose from the in-reservoir softener, but still the pump didn't draw any water. It sounds like it's trying to. I can't imagine the line is blocked, since the water is filtered through my refrigerator and then the softener cartridge. I suppose an airlock is possible, as the tank was lower than expected when I went to refill it. Any other ideas?
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 924 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 9:01am Subject: Re: HELP! clogged pump intake??? valve stuck open??? Duetto II
emradguy Said:
then disconnected the hose from the in-reservoir softener, but still the pump didn't draw any water. It sounds like it's trying to. I can't imagine the line is blocked, since the water is filtered through my refrigerator and then the softener cartridge. I suppose an airlock is possible, as the tank was lower than expected when I went to refill it. Any other ideas?
Get rid of the in line water softener, I don't like them....I won't go into detail (don't want to get into arguments with people about it), don't use it, use decent water that's right for the machine..
Then try and prime the machine without it and make sure the tube is at the bottom of the tank as they may have left it shorter because of that inline "thing". Oh, if it REALLY needs a good prime, then do it with the brew boiler switched off and cold, it will prime much better Once you get it running again, I would check where the hall effect sensor is on the case as it sounds like it may be mounted a bit low....if so you might need to raise it. Of course with the softener removed and the tube at the bottom of the tank. it may well work fine at the level it is set to (unless it's capable of draining the tank without going off.
P.S. Also check for free movement of the float, it's a very crude mechanism of holding the float in the tank. If the plastic screw isn't in far enough the float could possibly jam or stick.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,723 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 9:46am Subject: Re: HELP! clogged pump intake??? valve stuck open??? Duetto II
Dave, so glad you saw this and replied, I was hoping you would. :)
I couldn't agree more that the magnetic float completely sucks! I installed the in-reservoir myself, so I know the tube was not cut short to accommodate it. I'm now wondering if your suggestion that the hall effect sensor is too low because of the in-reservoir softener isn't spot on (I might check it anyways to be on the safe side). In fact, funny you mentioned the in-reservoir softener, I've been wanting to get rid of it, but my water is a bit too hard. I was recently looking at putting in a filter & softener system at my kitchen sink (replace the soap dispenser with a faucet), so this is more incentive.
I really want to figure a way to plumb in - not being able to is driving me nuts! The estimate I got to bring water and a drain to the dining room wine bar (where I have the espresso bar) was astronomical, and there's no other good place to setup (probably for another 4 or 5 years, at least). I've been thinking of converting a stack of drawers or shelves under the counter to a cabinet and just going with bottles, but I need to measure the bottles and space to see if they'd even fit. I'm getting pretty darn motivated though, so something's got to give soon!
Thanks again! I'll post some results after I get a chance to work on it tonight (and it'll be nice and cold when I get home).
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