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Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:19pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

Burner0000 Said:

OK cool.  I would just like to make sure That a regular PID will allow for set temps for both brew and temp so I don't have to set every time.
I keep seeing deals like this that incl all but the wires for 15A which I have.

Click Here

Posted January 1, 2013 link

Your guess on those specs.  Also no box to house it, but that is not necessary.  OTOH, you have 110 - 240v available for touch in the back of the PID, its power supply.

All the wires...Not quite.  The K thermocouple will not usually work.  It has incorrect threads and you oftem would be better with a bare K probe without a sheath, just the insulated sheath.  I sent you a flicker post earlier that shows the more typical wiring for power and wires to the SSR.  The 15A that you refer to are for SSR output, not input.  You also need a way to hook up the steam side.  You can use a dc source or a second SSR AC-AC and wiring to and from that.  You can also use a 9v battery.  Most of that is covered in the Gaggia thread earlier.  Most of PID portion of that thread is not very machine specific, but more common to the PID setup.  Also the Silvia thread by Tasseloff.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:29pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

I am not sure that we understand the PID and alarm workings the same.  If both functions are active, then you have stored parameters for the PID algorithms/.temperature and the alarm temperatures.  The alarm temperatures are higher than the PID settings as the steam is hotter.  The alarm circuit however is not energized so it cannot activate the SSR and override the PID with the "alarm."  When you activate a circuit, with your steam switch, you supply energy to the alarm circuit and the preset temperatures find the circuit out of alarm limits and then control it.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Burner0000
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,089
Location: Cambridge, Ontario Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia, VFA Expres...
Grinder: Macap MX/VFA N1464/Kyocera...
Drip: Manual Drip, French Press
Roaster: Behmor 1600 / Sonofresco
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:42am
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

Does anyone know where I can find a good wiring diagram for the PID and SSR in case I decide to go with an indipendant PID?
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:53pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

Wiring diagram

http://www.frcndigital.com/coffee/Silvia/SilviaPID2.html

I sent the flicker post prior showing the basic wiring.  Your actual wiring will obviously have to take into account your PID terminal posts.

Briefly, tap to the AC at the power on switch to use to turn the PJID on and off with the machine. #2  26-22AWG and preferably 105C internal wiring

Sensor wires to PID. #2  26-22AWG and preferably 105C internal wiring

PID to SSR #2  26-22AWG and preferably 105C internal wiring

SSR output to replace brew thermostat male ends #2 and these are the 15 amp load wires.

The other leg if you choose to use is for steam and that will depend on your setup.  I also have diagrams for that if needed.

Check your email and I will sent you some info.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Burner0000
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,089
Location: Cambridge, Ontario Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia, VFA Expres...
Grinder: Macap MX/VFA N1464/Kyocera...
Drip: Manual Drip, French Press
Roaster: Behmor 1600 / Sonofresco
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 2:11pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

Thanks for the emails.

I would like to use for steam.  

So if I am reading corrently  the wires to power the PID tap into the on/off switch.

Thermostat leads are routed to the SSR (++)
RTD leads from the PID sensor to the new RTD bolted onto the rancilio temp sensor.

The steam is where you lost me.  one of the links shows having to bypass the steam thermostat but it's very complicated. Why are either of the thermostats needed if the element is powered by the SSR/PID?
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 2:46pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

Sorry if that was confusing.  I think that the diagram showing dual setpoints implys that either setpoint output drives the SSR via the same output wires.  The diagram below may help.  This works for inexpensive PID controllers with a PID setpoint that outputs to the SSR and an alarm setpoint that may drive another device, alarm or in out case the SSR.  It has its own output and you will need a dc voltage source or a second SSR AC-AC.  You choose the alarm input and it functions as a switch to output what you input, AC or DC.  There are also dual SSRs with basically 2 SSRs in one box.  

Brew diagram

http://www.frcndigital.com/coffee/Coffee63.html


This is the cheap way.

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/546343

2 SSR here about 5 posts down

and next to it the Skene post for DC.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 2:50pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

The thermostats are not "needed" if you use the PID and alarm to control both brew and steam.  You still have to complete the circuit and depending on your method some leave the steam thermostat in circuit and some take it out.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Burner0000
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,089
Location: Cambridge, Ontario Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia, VFA Expres...
Grinder: Macap MX/VFA N1464/Kyocera...
Drip: Manual Drip, French Press
Roaster: Behmor 1600 / Sonofresco
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 5:26pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

Ok so my next question would be what to look for in a PID that will allow high and low presets for brew and steam.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 5:41pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

PID algorithms help idle and brew and are not needed/desired for steam.  PID could slow steam down.  Most, not all, of the PID controllers have PID function and alarm function both usable.  Some can be either/or.  The difficulty that I found with some of the generics was that the documentation was so poor that I could not tell whether I had to choose PID or on-off.

What are you trying to do that was not done on the CG references sent.  One controller with PID algorithm for boiler and alarm for steam.  You just need a DC source or an AC-AC SSR to pass through the alarm side which basically is an on-off switch with temperature control.

I am not sure whether you do not understand how it works, or want to do something different.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 5:49pm
Subject: Re: Advise on the best PID kit for Silvia V3
 

You want a PID controller that has PID and alarm, or PID and two alarms and to know that you can set the limit tempertures and types.  You want the alarms to be set as "absolute low" alarms IIRC.  Some are absolute high.  Sounds strange until you see the PID language of high and low limits.  I have the low limit higher than the high limit so that the temperature is controlled between two tempertures, not outside the temperature range.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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