CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Mods and Restorations, Gaggia Classic SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam

Espresso: Espresso Mods and Restorations
Gaggia Classic SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam

Cafe Espresso Machines

Video reviews, nationwide installation, leasing options... Nuova Simonelli, Rancilio, La Marzocco.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com

Not Logged in:

updated topics	new posts	new unanswered
search	faq	sign up

Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > Gaggia Classic...

view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics

showing page 19 of 32

first page | last page

previous page | next page

Author

Messages

brianl
Senior Member

Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 152
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex

Posted Wed Feb 20, 2013, 5:36pm Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

this is the instructions that I've reviewed. Click Here (www.afonic.org) Looking at your post at 12:44 pm, I noticed that you used diodes. Are these used in the kit or is this something specific to how you have the double alarm set up? I assume this would be easy to do with the 30 watt soldering iron? do you just connect the other end of the diode into the SSR or add a ring connector at the other end of the diode? what do you mean by mark the diode direction? Ill need: (based on http://www.flickr.com/photos/81832954%40N00/2330218796) 1) SSR to thermostat: 2 count, 14 AWG high temp load wires with ring connector on one side and male spade on the other. Silicone insulated preferred and approximately 2 feet in length. Although on the image it looks like they used a fork connector but the ring looks to work better since it looks like the SSR screws in. 2) PID power: 2 count, 26 AWG wire with piggyback at one end and bare at the other end. 2 feet in length and silicone insulated? 3) PID to SSR: 2 count, 26 AWG wire with fork/ring connector at one end and bare at the other end. 2 feet in length and silicone insulated? 4) I am lost on what exactly is going on with pair 3. It appears that you have six wires going into the SSR but there are four screws in the SSR. Do you double up? would this be the 'steam control' cable? 5) RTD sensor wire. 6) 14 AWG jumper cable? I would like to use all three functions, If I do this. for the option pair, would that be similar to pair 3 or one of the others? Sorry if it seems like things you might have actually covered. It's hard to visualize all the connections in the machine without pictures. So I am trying to match it up with those auber instructions. And even though the smaller wires are about 26 AWG, its best to get 16/14 AWG connectors? Or for the solder less, do you need the right sizes?

D4F
Senior Member

Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,200
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso

Posted Wed Feb 20, 2013, 6:24pm Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

Let me assure that this is easy to do on the machine, perhaps difficult to explain and understand since you have not actually held the parts. Auber does not use diodes. I am using them because I am using multiple sources of input to the SSR. Auber uses the controller SSR DC output and gains another DC output with a proprietary internal addition to the PID controller to get a DC output for the alarm. That only comes with the kit, and certainly not with the 1/16 DIN controllers. The PID controllers have a switching power supply, thus the DC output to SSR, and they activate another set of terminals, not active on the regular PID controller. I checked those terminals on my controllers, and no voltage. Diodes are cheap and have already tinned posts. I cut them off to about 1/2" and solder and shrinktube. Almost any iron will solder that. I have 3 SSR inputs, one from the controller and one from each power supply. On the negative input terminal are 3 lead that could be joined with solder before they enter the post, or with a rign connector at the post. No diode on that side. On the positive input are 3 wires, one from the controller SSR output, and one from each power supply that goes from the supply to the alarm terminals of alarm 1 and alarm 2. The alarm only serves as a temperature controlled switch allowing the positive to connect to the SSR or to switch off that wire. Those lines each have a diode to keep the supplies separate. Diodes are directional, pass current one direction and block the other, thus diode direction. Diodes are marked with standard markings. On the flicker photo the leads all seem to be crimped, so that seems to work if you match wire to connector size. Actually with matched connectors the connection is very good. All of the DC is low voltage and low amp. The 14 awg is house current and full element amperage/wattage. The flicker photo is idle control only. Each power supply has AC in and DC out, so that is 2 sets of lines for each. On the input to power supply you will need to jump off of the switched power, so piggyback connectors there and female spades on the power supply input plugs. The output will take a fairly short lead to the negative SSR and a long lead, the approximate 2', to the controller and then a short lead back to the SSR. I got 2 sizes on connectors to approximate the awg end, the actual male and female spades being 1/4". If you may have to crimp, then size correctly. You cannot match the Auber diagram well because of the proprietary DC vs power supplies. The switch end is similar and I can talk you through that. A DMM is very handy when you get ready. Feel free to ask as this may be difficult to visualize and perhaps lacking on the explanation end.

brianl
Senior Member

Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 152
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex

Posted Wed Feb 20, 2013, 7:43pm Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

I am considering this for a similar reason you did. I'm not too worried about the price either way but this seems like some good knowledge. Just some follow ups that I noted when I read your response: 1) So for crimping wires. If I have a 26 AWG wire, I will need 26 AWG connectors (ie spade, piggyback)? 18-22 AWG is the smallest that I can find in the piggyback. Best bet to just use a different gauge for the wire with the piggybacks? 2) Do you have just one DC power (for both alarms)? Or does each one require one? So the DC (cell charger) prongs are connected (female spades) to one of the switches (piggybacks?), you mentioned brew. I guess I'm not sure exactly how the output goes. It's split, you say that one goes to the SSR negative and the other to the PID via the alarm for steam and then back to the SSR Positive via a diode? 3) Did you mention what amp diodes to get? I would like to order up the wire stuff and then when that gets rolling get the SSR, PID Controller, state from auber later? Now I realize that you've given some good descriptions. Do they match up to this diagram? http://www.skenedesign.com/Silvia/ If it's different, do you think a diagram can be made just to show what connects to what and so i can see how many connections there actually are? I understand if it's too much ask but it could save a lot of back and forth. Therefore, you can use it to supplement your descriptions. It seems like the major players are the SSR, PID, DC power and the wires between them. I find the diagram for the silvia confusing because i'm not exactly sure what wire is what and what connectors are used. Such as the pair 1, 2, 3, 4 etc that you've mentioned. It seems that the silvia diagram has the two diodes to the SSR but for your setup there is a third? In addition to three going to the negative SSR without diodes? Both of these triplets are soldered together into one ring connector into the SSR (negative without diodes and positive with on each of the three connections in)? I'll take a look at the DC output some more and see if maybe I can pick it up.

D4F
Senior Member

Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,200
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso

Posted Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:54pm Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

Crimping will be best if you can match wire size to part size, just how the crimping works. If you can find stranded flexible 22 awg with 105C rating that will be good. It is just not on every shelf, but you can find it. You may be able to solder the 26awg and the small connector. 30 watts is not great for that as the mass will cool the iron, but it also depends on the mass of the iron. I shudder but you can get something like this. You can get that and usually use a 20% off coupon. Click Here (www.harborfreight.com) I have used one and it will certainly do the small connectors and small wire. The 14 awg is probably more easily crimped. One power supply for each alarm. Remember that the switch for brew and steam are actually turning on the AC to the power supply, and the output of each is going to a separate alarm. Page 15 has the diodes by part number. You might want to read the thread, it has a lot of info, and will cure insomnia :) No, I do not really mind repeating, but only the last several pages have parts, probably 15 on. The power supply output has DC+ and DC-. The + side is dioded. The 3 negatives connect to SSR input negative, or to each other and then to negative and the 3 positives to SSR input connect via diodes and to SSR +. For the controller to regulate the SSR, the + from the power supply goes through the alarm terminals on the controller and the controller alarm acts as a temperature controlled on and off switch to control the switched "on" power supply output. If the + line did not go to the alarm, then when the supply was turned on, it would be "on" to the SSR without temperature regulation. There would be no connection to the controller. You may want to google PID and SSR to understand those better. I have a busy couple of busy days, but will try to draw something up. Look at the diagram for "wiring Classic 120v," top of the page with parts 1 - 11, and let me know if you understand it. Are you looking for something like that with the controller and power supplies added? http://www.partsguru.com/GaggiaClassicCoffee.html

brianl
Senior Member

Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 152
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex

Posted Thu Feb 21, 2013, 8:18am Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

( Okay, I will see what I can find. Is an autostore the best place to start or would some place like radioshack? (i live in a city with no car so going to them out of the blue isnt the best option but can definitely manage a couple) So I need 2 load wire at 14 awg. all the rest can be smaller and just mix and match with the connectors that I can find (105C rating and stranded/flexible)? Only the load wires need to be big? The other wires can be whatever size but smaller is easier to manage? How did you hook up the two power supplys? The temperature control one to brew switch and the steam to the steam? Then each to their respective alarm on the PID? I actually did read the thread, but as you know I'm starting to know more so a lot on the first read probably went over my head. I'll hit it up again. How do I know which wire on the DC is positive and which is negative? Is it usually markes on the adapter or end of the wire? Now, is it possible to hook the three ring connectors into the SSR by stacking them on top of each other (For SSR+ and SSR-)? I assume the best chargers for to use as DC power are the ones that connect straight to the adaper (not usb)? That diagram I can understand pretty much. That sounds perfect if you added the controller, SSR and power supplies to it. thanks! Can you confirm the below shopping list? I'm not looking for any directions but just parts/tools. tools: Wire Stripper Wire Crimper (Click Here (www.monoprice.com)) I realize this one will require wires with AWG 22 and under. Soldering iron for diodes Wires: 2 X 14 AWG high temperature load wires (about 2 feet long each) 1 X 14 AWG AWG high temperature load wire (Jumper Cable) 8 X 14/26 AWG high temperature stranded high temperature (105C) wires (higher AWG preferred but it seems like 22 AWG is the max to find wires and about 2 feet each) (like this? Click Here (www.ebay.com)) Connectors: 2 X 14 AWG Ring terminal 2 X 14 AWG Female Spade 6 X 14-26 AWG Piggyback 2 X 14-26 AWG Ring Terminal 4 X 14-26 AWG Female Spade (If the stacking is fine as mentioned above for the SSR+ and SSR-, otherwise not needed) Auber: PID SSR RTD Thermostat Thermal paste Other: 3 X Diodes (3Amp 1N5400) 2 X DC cell phone charger Heat Shrink Let me know if I missed anything and I will EDIT the post. Sorry, I just want to get it all in one place so I can hit up the stores and get everything I need. I'll probably double my orders of above but thats just the bare minimum.

JGG
Senior Member

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,343
Location: Kentucky, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: PID Silvia; PID Alexia
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E (A), SJ; Rocky...
Roaster: Hottop D w/PID; Thermometric...

Posted Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:24am Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

Try and find wire that carries the "AWM" (appliance wire material) designation. This means that someone (UL?) decided it can tolerate the physical demands of being located inside an appliance. Jim

D4F
Senior Member

Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,200
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso

Posted Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:04am
Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

brianl Said:

So I need 2 load wire at 14 awg. all the rest can be smaller and just mix and match with the connectors that I can find (105C rating and stranded/flexible)? Only the load wires need to be big? The other wires can be whatever size but smaller is easier to manage?

Posted February 21, 2013 link

The Ebay wire sounds ok. I certainly agree with Jim, JGG, but I am not sure that you will see that designation until you see it on the wire. The 105C rating is a hint and you could ask the seller. Some coatings are difficult to cut/strip. Teflon is a bit tough, and I do not know about that coating, again probably fine.

As far as the connectors, I have not actually counted. In addition to the flicker photo I have a wire from switched end to charger, and a wire from back plug to each charger. At the charger end, there is a female spade on each, 1/4 inch and awg to fit your wire. $ female spades at the chargers then. I have a stub out of the charger about 6" and added spades there as disconnects. I could remove or change out a charger. I could have just used the charger output wire and cut off the tip and used connectors as needed. If I ever needed to remove I could have unwired, or cut the wire by the charger and spliced the next one in. My way then has a spade on + and - of the charger output and coresponding spade connectors on the lines to PID and SSR. I am short on time until later, so I will have to try to add that up. You can find the flexible silicone wire 14 awg at a hobby, radio control, shop if that is handy. 3-4' should do, that is just in the machine, SSR output to brewstat leads.

Not sure about your jumper cable? There is a very short wire across 2 PID terminals for the RTD sensor, about 1" of the fine wire.

I ended up with 4 packages of philmore spades previously noted. No electronic geek or electronic surplus in the area? You will need several spade piggybacks.

http://www.sciplus.com/storeDetail.cfm?store=1

I will try to get you better info and a photo or two soon.

brianl
Senior Member

Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 152
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex

Posted Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:58am Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

Do the wire terminals need to be 105C rated? For instance, Click Here (www.homedepot.com) it has a max temperature of 105C but the rating is 80C. Ideally, something like this to buy and get the piggybacks separate. Click Here (www.homedepot.com) or Click Here (www.ebay.com)

D4F
Senior Member

Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,200
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso

Posted Thu Feb 21, 2013, 7:06pm Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

I did not know about the temperature rating on the terminals. It makes sense, but that rating would likely apply to the insulation as the terminals are metal. Since I solder and shrink wrap I did not face or research that. I would worry mainly if the terminals were in contact with the boiler. All of the wiring is in the heat inside the machine, not in contact. You can research spade insulation temperature or possible ask at Home Depot. You are captive of the expertise of the person who helps you. Found this with insulation types noted, including high temparature. Click Here (www.nelcoproducts.com) Looks like the 105C is max for most common insulation. You can buy noninsulated and then crimp and heatshrink, instead of solder and heatshrink. I have a couple of heatshrinks, but common is good to 125-135C and higher for short term.

D4F
Senior Member

Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,200
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso

Posted Thu Feb 21, 2013, 8:34pm Subject: Re: PID Controller supplies and directions for Gaggia and SBDU

A little more on wiring, a test run to see if we can talk through this using the diagram. Back to the 120v wiring diagram Click Here (www.partsguru.com) First the PID controller. A piggyback spade will need to go to switch 1, on and off and the PID AC "in" will connect there and at the back plug, "N' leg on the diagram. Piggyback there also, and then a female spade with small awg from each piggyback to the controller. That is power to the controller. Remove 4, brewstat, and place the RTD in the screw well and those wires to the RTD controller input, and a small jumper at the controller. Threads are brass, so finger tight or you can twist it off. From controller SSR output, lines to the SSR which in our case will get a diode on the + line. Inside the machine the SSR will eventually mount to the back case with thermopaste against the back wall. Mine mounted best on the L rear by the pump, as you face the machine. My SSR mounted best with the small awg or SSR input up and the 14 awg down. You will only need enough 14 awg to work in the machine, so total 2-3 ft. On SSR end rings or forks and on the end replacing the brew stat, male spades, also replacing the male spade end/connectors of the brewstat. The PID controller replaces the brewstat. It was an on-off bimetal stat with a wide temperature swing/deadband. The controller, RTD, and SSR all are working together to do that function with PID algorithms to control and dampen. The SSR is an optical switch that isolated the incoming signal, low volts and amps, from the load. They are not connected physically, only optically. The SSR is designed for rapid full on and off blips to control the temperature by blips of full power, not by power modulation. A normal mechanical switch would rapidly fail, so, the Solid State Relay. The SSR has a single load line and it is making a connection, or breaking is based on the input. That is what the OEM stat did, just open or close. Sorry if you already knew all of this, but I am trying to make sure that we are on the same understanding of the diagram and how the system works. I will try to go through each control as you understand. Hopefully wiring and function can be done together. Let me know when you want more.

showing page 19 of 32

first page | last page

previous page | next page

view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics

Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > Gaggia Classic...

updated topics

new posts

new unanswered

faq

Not Logged in: log in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post

Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.

Rocket R58 Double Boiler

Rocket Espresso R58 Double Boiler - Everything you need for the perfect shot!
www.seattlecoffeegear.com