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I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > I'm about to...  
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JeremyR
Senior Member
JeremyR
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Posts: 256
Location: Wellington
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: yes
Grinder: yes
Vac Pot: yes
Drip: occasionally
Roaster: yes
Posted Thu Mar 17, 2005, 9:34am
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

JonR10 Said:

????    I don't see the logic in that.  
Wouldn't you still pull ~2 ounces in ~25 seconds?  The difference is that for the S1 basket that water will contact MORE coffee grounds by weight or volume (unless you use a 58mm triple).

Posted March 17, 2005 link

Each drop touches more grounds on the way through, but it moves faster due to the fact that the path is longer and narrower. There is still the same amount of water in contact with the grounds for the same time in a 25 sec, 2oz shot. Don't know if this makes a difference, but I doubt it. I believe The M3 uses a 58mm basket, although I suspect that is more due to default than design.
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Allaeh
Senior Member


Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 18
Location: California
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly BABY!!!
Posted Thu Mar 17, 2005, 8:23pm
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

KittJ Said:

So I am happy with the Brewtus and I haven't seen any real dissapointment by any of the owners.  WLL chose to bring it in without some of the aesthetic add-ons, but seems willing to order them for those of us who want to dress it up.   Kitt

Posted March 17, 2005 link

So Kittj, what stuff can you get to dress the brewtus? Thanks
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twomartinis
Senior Member
twomartinis
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 956
Location: Charlotte, NC
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: FF! X5
Grinder: Rocky & Mini-winkle
Roaster: graffix at 4:20
Posted Thu Mar 17, 2005, 11:41pm
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

jrtATL Said:

The theory is that each drop of water has to pass through more coffee to exit the PF, resulting in richer extraction.

Posted March 17, 2005 link

I'll jump on the bandwagon. It is not true that each drop of brew water passes through more coffee per say, only that the geometry is variable. The 53mm PF, holding the same 17 or so grams of grounds merely present a taller filter bed through which the brew water must pass. This is not new territory; all one has to do is google "filter beds" or "packed column beds" to get oodles of hits from the chemistry and geological fields. More than enough casual reading for the average bloke...

I would lean in favor of the 53mm S1 basket based on extraction principles alone. The only drawback I can think of would be thermal gradient issues with a taller filter bed, who knows??

 
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JeremyR
Senior Member
JeremyR
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Posts: 256
Location: Wellington
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: yes
Grinder: yes
Vac Pot: yes
Drip: occasionally
Roaster: yes
Posted Fri Mar 18, 2005, 12:25am
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

twomartinis Said:

I'll jump on the bandwagon. It is not true that each drop of brew water passes through more coffee per say, only that the geometry is variable.

Posted March 17, 2005 link

And that geometry affects the flow path of the water. Taking it to an extreme will highlight the point I am trying to make. If you spread 17g of coffee out so that it is about 1mm thick, and probably about the diameter of a CD, then each drop of water (if you could manage to distribute it) would only pass through a small proportion of the grounds. OTOH, if you packed a double into a very long drinking straw, each drop of water will touch pretty much all the grounds on the way through.

I would lean in favor of the 53mm S1 basket based on extraction principles alone. The only drawback I can think of would be thermal gradient issues with a taller filter bed, who knows??

What are these extraction principles? I don't have the interest in filter beds to spend all day reading up about them. If you push the same amount of water at the same temp and pressure through the same coffee grounds for the same length of time, how would one extract better than the other. The only advantage I can think of for the reduced diameter is perhaps reduced channeling.
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Fri Mar 18, 2005, 4:35am
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

JeremyR Said:

I don't have the interest in filter beds to spend all day reading up about them. If you push the same amount of water at the same temp and pressure through the same coffee grounds for the same length of time, how would one extract better than the other. The only advantage I can think of for the reduced diameter is perhaps reduced channeling.

Posted March 18, 2005 link



Don't forget that the S1 basket HOLDS MORE COFFEE than the standard E61 doubles, so chances are you can get a nicer shot using the S1 than using any standard E61 setup (of course the bottomless triple setup holds even more coffee than that per shot).  

All the conversation about geometry and physics is theoretical at best and you can argue each side but the S1 basket holds about 18-20 grams of coffee rather than 14-16 grams in a normal double basket and THAT is what makes a difference in the cup (no calculations required).  

So you could possibly assert that this particular 53mm portafilter does indeed cause each drop of water to contact more grounds just because there are more grounds to work with.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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joatmon
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Greer, SC
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Mar 18, 2005, 6:55am
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

Removed
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jrtATL
Senior Member
jrtATL
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,035
Location: Austin TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Control
Grinder: Mazzer Jolly; Cunill...
Drip: Melitta Clarity
Roaster: Drum on a Weber grill; HG/DB
Posted Fri Mar 18, 2005, 7:07am
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

joatmon Said:

Re: the S1

Doesn't it just matter how the coffee tastes and how repeatable and consistant your extractions are?

Posted March 18, 2005 link

I think you nailed it.  This is what is important to me.  And I think that this is most important to alot of other 'geeks.

We can debate the merits of machine design and the science of coffee extraction all day, but what counts on a practical level is taste and repeatibility.  

It seems that all the machines mentioned in this thread produce great coffee (when done right) and provide repeatible results (if done right).  

Jeremy

 
"I've appeared before every court in the state.  Often as a lawyer." - Lionel Hutz, Esq.
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slee10
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 249
Location: Manhattan
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Cremina 2011, Elektra MCaL
Grinder: Versalab M3
Roaster: None
Posted Tue Apr 26, 2005, 6:32am
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

I have a TINY TINY kitchen.  Here's a photo of a Mazzer Mini with the Giotto Premium for you to get an idea of size.

slee10: Giotto.jpg
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slee10
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 249
Location: Manhattan
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Cremina 2011, Elektra MCaL
Grinder: Versalab M3
Roaster: None
Posted Tue Apr 26, 2005, 6:33am
Subject: Re: I'm about to just put the names on the wall and start throwing darts....
 

And here's the same set-up with my new Mazzer Super Jolly.  As you can see, the size difference is not that great.

slee10: SJsetup.jpg
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