jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Jul 3, 2003, 4:49pm Subject: Re: Newbie here, what is difference between espresso, capuccino, and latte?
handcannon Said:
Jim: "high tech double and triple ristrettos"? Let's see, they've already PID'ed the machines so the only thing left is...OHMIGOD! They PID'ed the baristas!! (Picturing the Terminator pulling shots).
LittleCoffeeBean Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2003 Posts: 6 Location: Sydney Expertise: Intermediate
Espresso: Breville; Brasillia (work) Drip: Still Melitta One Cup; Café...
Posted Thu Jul 3, 2003, 5:27pm Subject: Re: Newbie here, what is difference between espresso, capuccino, and latte?
Hehe Glashoppah.
It's interesting that people criticize 'coffee chain coffee'; for instance Starbucks and Gloria Jean's, and compare it to large transnational companies like Maccas, when, in my opinion, the only way to continue a tradition of coffee recipes and styles is to 'standardize' them through these large chains.
True, the whole atmosphere and art of coffee is compromised through a store manager's wishes for 'speedy service' and 'quick revenues', but in terms of keeping a standard in coffee... For example serving 100% high quality Arabica beans.
Although I must say that Starbucks and Gloria Jean's can't even agree on what constitutes a 'caramel macchiato'. :-/
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Jul 3, 2003, 7:40pm Subject: Re: Newbie here, what is difference between espresso, capuccino, and latte?
LittleCoffeeBean Said:
It's interesting that people criticize 'coffee chain coffee'; for instance Starbucks and Gloria Jean's, and compare it to large transnational companies like Maccas, when, in my opinion, the only way to continue a tradition of coffee recipes and styles is to 'standardize' them through these large chains.
The tradition of 2 ounces espresso and 4 ounces milk in a cappa is getting along just fine without the help.
I'm not sure what sort of tradition a few drams of indifferent coffee that happened to be made on a misused espresso machine adulterating a quart of overheated milk represents. Maybe it's a breakthrough inner child exercise from Big Sur.
sezme Senior Member Joined: 24 Apr 2003 Posts: 25 Location: Toronto Expertise: Intermediate
Espresso: Moka Supreme (!?) Grinder: MC2002 in disguise Drip: Philips Roma
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 7:24am Subject: Re: Newbie here, what is difference between espresso, capuccino, and latte?
It's interesting that people criticize 'coffee chain coffee'; for instance Starbucks and Gloria Jean's, and compare it to large transnational companies like Maccas, when, in my opinion, the only way to continue a tradition of coffee recipes and styles is to 'standardize' them through these large chains.
Actually, as Jim says, I'd argue the opposite. Imagine if Starbucks decides that a cappuccino should have 1/2 again as much milk as it currently does (They wouldn't do that would they?) because that's what their customers worldwide prefer or because the price of coffee went up and the price of milk went down.
And bickety-bam, through this one simple subversion, a few million people around the globe become re-educated about a traditional drink. So now who's continuing the tradition? Starbucks like any superpower has the ability to change according to its immediate needs and influence large numbers of people in the process, and so is untrustworthy as a repository for tradition. I'll gladly stick with the little guys (including the ones who make their drinks at home) as more willing to keep traditions or get left behind if they change them without good reason.
Having said that, of course all traditions change over time inevitably. The espresso today is prepared very differently than the one prepared in 1920, and nobody wants to go back. If you really want to preserve traditions and recipies, write them down, take pictures, and store them in boxes.
LittleCoffeeBean Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2003 Posts: 6 Location: Sydney Expertise: Intermediate
Espresso: Breville; Brasillia (work) Drip: Still Melitta One Cup; Café...
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 6:10pm Subject: Re: Newbie here, what is difference between espresso, capuccino, and latte?
The tradition of 2 ounces espresso and 4 ounces milk in a cappa is getting along just fine without the help.
I beg to differ. You would be amazed to see the variations in, say milk temperature, in coffees purchased from five different 'trendy' cafés on one city street of Sydney. Ranging from a lukewarm 110°F to a scalding, feathery 180°F... From a free pour smooth, silky texture to ladles of bubbly froth to holding textured milk back with a spatula.
At the very least, within different stores under ONE company name, a consumer knows what to expect. So whether you love it or hate it, a Starbucks cappa is a Starbucks cappa is a Starbucks cappa. You can buy it, or you can leave it. No nasty surprises.
In no way am I supporting the overwhelming globalisation of large transnational companies like Starbucks. I am speaking purely on the strict standards, whether good or bad, they set on all their stores.
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 7:06pm Subject: Re: Newbie here, what is difference between espresso, capuccino, and latte?
LittleCoffeeBean Said:
At the very least, within different stores under ONE company name, a consumer knows what to expect. So whether you love it or hate it, a Starbucks cappa is a Starbucks cappa is a Starbucks cappa. You can buy it, or you can leave it. No nasty surprises.
Starbucks is a touchy topic with coffee enthusiasts; Mark and I had a run in (or perhaps I had a mouth run off) at the SCAA about it.
They've probably have raised the awareness of good coffee with tens of millions of Americans; but they've settled into a rut of thorough mediocrity that they're spreading over the earth.
I'm changing my mind about them. I no longer think they and their imitators are a serious threat to good coffee. Instead I think they're well on the way to replacing the Folgers, Maxwell House, et al. as purveyors of "muzak coffee," stuff that's vaguely pleasant, undemanding, and that non-coffee lovers can drink all day without paying too much attention. The big four, who owned this far larger market segment, are doing themselves in, because their quality has gone from unobjectionable to disgusting in about a generation.
sezme Senior Member Joined: 24 Apr 2003 Posts: 25 Location: Toronto Expertise: Intermediate
Espresso: Moka Supreme (!?) Grinder: MC2002 in disguise Drip: Philips Roma
Posted Sat Jul 5, 2003, 2:44pm Subject: Re: Newbie here, what is difference between espresso, capuccino, and latte?
The big four, who owned this far larger market segment, are doing themselves in, because their quality has gone from unobjectionable to disgusting in about a generation.
Interesting analysis. I wonder if that's true in an economic sense, though. That is: has Starbucks impinged on the gross revenue of the big four in a serious way. I'd see it as generally positive if they have. The pessimest in me is of the opinion that they've taken their market share more from the independent coffeeshop (sad) and to a lesser extent from MacDonalds/Dunkin' Donuts/other fast food chains (again, not so bad).
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Sat Jul 5, 2003, 5:43pm Subject: Re: Newbie here, what is difference between espresso, capuccino, and latte?
sezme Said:
Interesting analysis. I wonder if that's true in an economic sense, though. ... The pessimest in me is of the opinion that they've taken their market share more from the independent coffeeshop (sad) and to a lesser extent from MacDonalds/Dunkin' Donuts/other fast food chains .
You're right about the direct effect; but indirectly the whole market is slipping away from the big four. All roast and R&G coffee sales are down except for gourmet beans, and sales of brewed/espresso coffees are up.
According to NCA president, Robert Nelson, specialty coffee drinkers are up from 7% to 14%, and occasional drinkers from 32% to 65% in the last ten years. He tried to put a good face on it, by claiming to represent the whole coffee industry, but the numbers spell a meltdown for the big 4. More here
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