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Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
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e61brewski
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e61brewski
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Posts: 131
Location: greenville, sc
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: isomac tea, riviera lever
Grinder: mazzer major, isomac gran...
Vac Pot: dirt devil lx
Drip: wouldn't dare
Roaster: i-roast
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 3:17pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

well now, don't i feel stupid. a thermometer right in the tubing! different readouts with beans in the portafilter! ghaaaa!

seriously, excellent work guys. some clarifications of my own...

a: cannonfodder: my thermocouple cost me $9. i dunno about all this expensive thermocouple business. get yours here. it's extremely accurate, given my brief experience.

b: teme: although the video clip is indeed specific to an isomac machine, i would think the general parameters would also apply to an andreja or similar machine. i use my boiler cycles (red and green lights) to gauge the amount of time needed to recover from a flush. in fact, this method is better than simply counting off the seconds because the flush and recovery time IS dependent on how long the machine has been on, how many shots you've pulled, etc. so as temps fluctuate, counting a simple five seconds can be too long or too short or just right, depending on the circumstances.

if you use the boiler cycles to measure (whatever this means to you) you can more accurately flush AND recover for the exact amount of time needed, given the temperature of your machine  and the group. that's my experience, anyway. i have friend with a tea that he insulated himself, and of course the cycles are slower on his machine as well. the point is to be in tune with your machine -- don't just count off the seconds. i know my machine well enough to know that  when the boiler needle is behaving a certain way (dipping to that extra-low point after the hissing has stopped) it's time to stop the flush. your recovery might just be one boiler cycle -- or one and a half. but using the gauge helps you adjust with your machine's specific atmospherics.

c: i believe you when you say that you're satisified with your flush routine. i have been too. it was the advent of a particularly sensitive (and good) espresso as well as talk at some of the, er, traffic-hogging blogs about super-sophisticated results on an e61 machine that made me want to push for more. if we're all on a continuum of espresso growth, and not operating at a static level of satisfaction, this desire for more/better will hit us all at some point, no? at least, that's how i justify my costly upgrades...

d: cannonfodder: i'm STILL surprised that your temp remains so stable. in my video, the shot temp fluctuates three degrees celcius, or about five degrees fahrenheit. true, the temp should waver less if i repeat the experiment with grounds in the basket. but that wouldn't seem to entirely explain the stabilization you're getting. it makes me want to do better. suggestions?

e: thanks for the blog and video kudos. i'm amazed that the isomac music video continues to get comments and laughs after all these months. clearly, though, i need to do a better one for the TC flush! more later...

 
the blog: http://ben.szobody.com
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cannonfodder
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cannonfodder
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 873
Location: Dayton, Oh
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ElektraA3,Faema2G, Isomac,...
Grinder: Cimbali, Mazzer
Vac Pot: Dont smoke pot or vac it.
Drip: Press pot
Roaster: Hottop, drum roaster
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 4:46pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

What are you running your pstat at? I have my unit set a bit high, 1.4 on the top.

 
Dave Stephens
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strugs
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strugs
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 658
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vincent Wega (Wega Lyra)
Grinder: Jules (Mazzer Mini)
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Drip: Tray
Roaster: 49th and/or Intelly
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 4:55pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

cannonfodder Said:

What are you running your pstat at? I have my unit set a bit high, 1.4 on the top.

Posted July 14, 2005 link

That is probably a contributing factor to the stability of your shots.  Most peeps I know of keep PS pegged at 1.1 or less.  I currently run at about 1.05.  I would love to run higher for more steaming power, and I probably will do this after I whip up a hex bolt TC.

 
- Sean
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cannonfodder
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cannonfodder
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 873
Location: Dayton, Oh
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ElektraA3,Faema2G, Isomac,...
Grinder: Cimbali, Mazzer
Vac Pot: Dont smoke pot or vac it.
Drip: Press pot
Roaster: Hottop, drum roaster
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

strugs Said:

That is probably a contributing factor to the stability of your shots.  Most peeps I know of keep PS pegged at 1.1 or less.  I currently run at about 1.05.  I would love to run higher for more steaming power, and I probably will do this after I whip up a hex bolt TC.

Posted July 14, 2005 link

That is exactly why I run my pstat so high. I make a lot of milk drinks and want the extra steam power. The trade off is a seriously fast recovery time. After my cooling flush, which is rather large, I have about 12 seconds for recovery. After 20 seconds I get a burst of steam and then the dancing water for another 8 or 10 sec before it starts to settle down.

With a pstat setting of 1.1 you get about 30 seconds of recovery. Once I got my rhythm down it was not difficult to manage. I do a 10oz flush after my initial heat up. About 5 seconds of whistling steam during the first flush. Then I dump the water out of my cappa cup, which is good and hot now. Grind, do another quick 8oz flush, remove the PF, dry, dose/level/tamp. Do another 8oz flush, put the PF in, dump water out the cup into the sink, put the cup under and go. I know it sounds like a lot of work but that is the price you pay for a blazing hot boiler.

Now if I am pulling back to back shots the flushing slows quite a bit. Keep in mind this is the first shot of the day after the machine has heated for an hour. The thing that surprised me was that after I made the thermometer I found that my flushing was almost perfect. I consistently got 199 to 201 temps on the pull. However with the aid of the thermometer I can get it down to about a half degree F.

 
Dave Stephens
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cannonfodder
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cannonfodder
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 873
Location: Dayton, Oh
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ElektraA3,Faema2G, Isomac,...
Grinder: Cimbali, Mazzer
Vac Pot: Dont smoke pot or vac it.
Drip: Press pot
Roaster: Hottop, drum roaster
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 5:45pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

Here is a link to another thread about e61 GH temps. I posted two photos, the first is the temp of my GH after a one hour heat, the second is about three seconds after I flipped the lever, steam…

"Max GH temp on a E61 HX machine?"

 
Dave Stephens
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cannonfodder
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cannonfodder
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 873
Location: Dayton, Oh
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ElektraA3,Faema2G, Isomac,...
Grinder: Cimbali, Mazzer
Vac Pot: Dont smoke pot or vac it.
Drip: Press pot
Roaster: Hottop, drum roaster
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 5:50pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

Ben, if you have space, I can shoot a choppy video clip with my dig camera of a shot and email it to you if you want to see it in action. You could post it on your BLOG.

Funny I do not have my own page but after working on computers for ten hours a day I just don’t have the desire to work on them when I get home.

 
Dave Stephens
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e61brewski
Senior Member
e61brewski
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Posts: 131
Location: greenville, sc
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: isomac tea, riviera lever
Grinder: mazzer major, isomac gran...
Vac Pot: dirt devil lx
Drip: wouldn't dare
Roaster: i-roast
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 5:59pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

send it. i'll see what i can do.

 
the blog: http://ben.szobody.com
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cannonfodder
Senior Member
cannonfodder
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 873
Location: Dayton, Oh
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ElektraA3,Faema2G, Isomac,...
Grinder: Cimbali, Mazzer
Vac Pot: Dont smoke pot or vac it.
Drip: Press pot
Roaster: Hottop, drum roaster
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 6:05pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

I have to head up to Toledo tomorrow morning, about 5am, and will not be home until Saturday afternoon. I will get it then. I doubt I have time tonight. I have to finish another article for HB and have it posted tonight.

 
Dave Stephens
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cannonfodder
Senior Member
cannonfodder
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 873
Location: Dayton, Oh
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ElektraA3,Faema2G, Isomac,...
Grinder: Cimbali, Mazzer
Vac Pot: Dont smoke pot or vac it.
Drip: Press pot
Roaster: Hottop, drum roaster
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 8:18pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

Just shot two video clips. The first is the first flush after an hour of heating, lots of steam. The second is a shot. The pump was on two or three seconds prior to hitting the record, I only have two hands. It is a little shaky but you can see. The thermometer stabilizes at 201 and drops to 200.6 at the end of the shot. After I purge the pressure it quickly drops which is normal, you are pulling cooled water back out of the portafilter.

 
Dave Stephens
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cannonfodder
Senior Member
cannonfodder
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 873
Location: Dayton, Oh
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ElektraA3,Faema2G, Isomac,...
Grinder: Cimbali, Mazzer
Vac Pot: Dont smoke pot or vac it.
Drip: Press pot
Roaster: Hottop, drum roaster
Posted Sat Jul 16, 2005, 5:56pm
Subject: Re: Timing the cooling flush on E61 machines?
 

The shot video is almost 20mb and only about 30 sec. How do you want me to send it to you?

 
Dave Stephens
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