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Please help me with my lever
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Please help me...  
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moy71
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moy71
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 158
Location: sydney
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Scala Butterfly HX
Grinder: Mazzer Mini manual
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Roaster: drum BBQ,  Whirley pop,...
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005, 8:37pm
Subject: Please help me with my lever
 

I have just bought the LaScala butterfly and would like to find out how everyone else uses their  "lever"  (the one with a cam that flicks a switch, not the LaPavoni types) on their machines.  

My machine is not plumbed, and the lever has 2 positions -i)  middle, which is the preinfusion and ii) top, which is the actual brewing.  

Does anyone hold the lever in the middle or preinfusion stage?  if so how long do you leave it there before the actual brewing (all the way up)?  

Or perhaps do you simply go from off position all the way up ie ignoring the middle position altogether?

Really just curious more than anything.
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EN
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EN
Joined: 31 May 2004
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Espresso: Isomac Millennium
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Drip: Ya, i hear it too, where is...
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Posted Fri Jul 15, 2005, 5:29am
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

Seems to me, it depends on who you talk to!!  most who pre-infuse seem to do it for either 5 or 10 sec.
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Teme
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Teme
Joined: 7 Jan 2005
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Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II
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Posted Fri Jul 15, 2005, 7:47am
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

I do not hold my lever in the middle position, i.e. I just "throw" it all the way up. The pump takes time to build up pressure and the pre-infusion chamber of the E61 do take care of the pre-infusion part.

Also, and others please correct me if I am wrong, the middle position of the E61 was intended for the true commercial E61 machines with rotary pumps (i.e. instant pressure, no delay) but have no use in a home setting. So how about the home machines with rotaries? I think the middle position is still redundant - but this is not knowledge , just a guess ;-)

Br,
Teme

 
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ev
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ev
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
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Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Super 2004
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Posted Fri Jul 15, 2005, 9:35am
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

My understanding is that you flick the lever up all the way. Pre-infusion automatically takes place. The middle position means nothing.
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Fri Jul 15, 2005, 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

For reservoir / vibe pump type machines, some water will dribble out when you raise the lever halfway since the HX is under pressure, but that's all. If you had constant line pressure and no solenoid cutoffs (*), water would flow through the HX under mains line pressure, providing a gentle preinfusion. Although I have no personal experience with it, I understand the Synesso has this capability (i.e., manual preinfusion under line pressure or an automatic preinfusion cycle).

Note: It takes quite a few readings to absorb, but the E61 patent description and diagram (below) make it clear what's going on in the "halfway" position (if I read the labels right, the short answer is "water can pass from chamber 3 to chamber 14").

-- Dan

(*) My plumbed-in machine includes a water inlet solenoid to prevent backflow in the event of a mains pressure failure, so active line pressure is not present at the group unless the pump is running.

HB: e61patentdrawing.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
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moy71
Senior Member
moy71
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 158
Location: sydney
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Scala Butterfly HX
Grinder: Mazzer Mini manual
Vac Pot: Hario Moca
Drip: Melitta pour-over
Roaster: drum BBQ,  Whirley pop,...
Posted Fri Jul 15, 2005, 11:43pm
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

i had another good look this morning and i found that when i leave it on the middle setting, quite a bit of water does trickle out so long as the lever is in the middle (no pump action though; just water oozing out).  In fact, i can also hear it trickling out.... even  when my PF is locked in the group head.  

i can imagine the scenario:  PF full of coffee being soaked by water just before the actual brewing takes place.

ps...come to think of it, the reason why i hear the preinfusion must be because i haven't flushed long enough....its the "crackling" or water dancing on the shower screen that i hear.

i have to do more comparisons tomorrow to see the taste difference when i manually preinfuse vs lever all the way up straight away.  i might even purposely over- preinfuse for say, 10-15secs just to see if it will amplify any difference in taste.

i'll keep you posted.
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Sat Jul 16, 2005, 9:38am
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

moy71 Said:

ps...come to think of it, the reason why i hear the preinfusion must be because i haven't flushed long enough....its the "crackling" or water dancing on the shower screen that i hear.

Posted July 15, 2005 link

Indeed, that's why "manual preinfusion" in this case is a bit of a misnomer. There's no pressure left in the HX after the cooling flush, and if you wait for it to build up, the temperature will be off. C'est la vie, mon ami.

-- Dan

 
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moy71
Senior Member
moy71
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 158
Location: sydney
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Scala Butterfly HX
Grinder: Mazzer Mini manual
Vac Pot: Hario Moca
Drip: Melitta pour-over
Roaster: drum BBQ,  Whirley pop,...
Posted Sun Jul 17, 2005, 3:02am
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

deep down, i am beginning to tink that the whole HX system is a bit flawed then isn't it?

the whole reason i upraded was no more "wait" or "down" time between extractions.   but i think this isn't the case as there is such a thing as rebound time, lag time etc.

so in essence, pls correct me if i am wrong....but on an HX, I cannot make say 10 espressos in a row?  I am talking one after another (bang, bang, bang)?  i gotta wait in between shots?
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Sun Jul 17, 2005, 6:00am
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

moy71 Said:

so in essence, pls correct me if i am wrong....but on an HX, I cannot make say 10 espressos in a row?  I am talking one after another (bang, bang, bang)?  i gotta wait in between shots?

Posted July 17, 2005 link

Actually the majority of this flushing business is necessary because you're not going "bang, bang, bang." Heavy-group machines prefer to be run continuously.

-- Dan

 
www.home-barista.com
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JonR10
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JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
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Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Jul 17, 2005, 7:47am
Subject: Re: Please help me with my lever
 

moy71 Said:

i gotta wait in between shots?

Posted July 17, 2005 link

If it takes you more than 30 seconds to reload your portafilter between shots then it's always been best (in my experience) to draw a few ounces of water through the group before locking in.  

LISTEN for the flow to go smooth, then lock and load...

The rebound time on my Relax is less than a minute, so if I wait too long between shots then I need to run a flush for a few seconds to clear the HX tube of overheated water.  

If you consider that extra 10-20 seconds of flushing a "wait" while running the water then your statement is true.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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