Definitely not too powerful. At first I found it a little on the weak side but this is compared to my Livia. I need to get out the thermometer so I can get a better feel. My preferred tip is the Giotto's so I stick with that one. I also tried the Rancilio S24 and Livia tips but didn't like them. I do get good results on the Giotto and I expect them to get better yet. I think the Giotto is a fantastic choice.
Webslave - Thanks for the Giotto steaming appraisal. After a substantial amount of practice I can now actually get decent steaming results from my Gaggia Baby so I'm guessing that with practice I could do well wiht the Giotto. I have also appreciated your commentary on the Giotto in general - it's among the info that's been pushing me in that direction.
Drawbacks include the steam pressure. It contains just enough power to texture 1/6th of a liter, enough for one cappuccino, of milk in a narrow 1/3rd liter pitcher. Remember, to texture the milk the steamer has to have enough power to spin the entire volume of milk in the pitcher.
phaelon56 also said:
I'm looking ahead to a machine upgrade and despite the great stuff I'm reading about Zaffiro and Tea (and Expobar) I seem to be fixated on the Giotto.
From what I'm hearing, the primary difference between something like the Tea and the Giotto on a technical basis is visuals and small features like plumbing, resevoir size, etc..
I don't know how the Tea or similar machines compare for steaming to the Giotto. Keep in mind that Mr. Schomer is comparing it to his stable at work more than other home machines.
phaelon56 also said:
If for some reason the Giotto is not as good for steaming then I really need to know which machine in the sub $1,200 category is best for that purpose.
Livia has the power but needs a tip mod for best texture (unless you like dry foam, which I used to until I tasted the velvet). It sounds like Giotto has the basic power, but doesn't meet Mr. Schomer's preferred requirements for technique (swirling all the milk).
I did read that article but appreciate the feedback I get here because it's from folks whose reference point is home machines or semi-commercial in home use rather than commercial machines. I was a bit puzzled by the 1/6 liter reference - it seems so low but maybe Schomer has such exacting requirements that he can't recommend it be used for more than that. I typically steam about 6 - 8 oz with my Gaggia Baby and although it took me a coupel months of practice and some useful advice from folks in this forum, I now get velvety foam on a fairly consistent basis. I'm still working on the pouring/shaking techniques for decent latte art but am making progress. I'm just a bit puzzled/surprised that steam power is not better on the Giotto. Perhaps there are are other similar grouphead machines that are better performers for steaming milk but still have a great look?
My take is also that he has a commercial reference point and is not totally in tune with what the average person can or will put up with in the home. He has very exacting standards and that is great.
phaelon56 Said:
I was a bit puzzled by the 1/6 liter reference - it seems so low but maybe Schomer has such exacting requirements that he can't recommend it be used for more than that.
I don't think it's really an issue of how much you can steam with that machine. I think it's how much you can steam using the technique that he feels is best for achieving the milk texture he thinks is best.
But the beauty of it all is that while there are clear scientifically derived principles we can arrive at, the palate is still a subjective experience. I would suspect that there are other techniques for achieving an excellently textured milk that are perfectly acceptable and enjoyable. Maybe not as quickly or as easily as his published and documented technique, but...
I'm just a bit puzzled/surprised that steam power is not better on the Giotto. Perhaps there are are other similar grouphead machines that are better performers for steaming milk but still have a great look?
Remember that the pressure stat can be adjusted also to increase steaming pressure. It could be that adjusting it for good comparable steam to other similar machines causes the brew temp to be too hot (distance from HX to brewhead could be different?).
I'm sure it would be a machine most of us wouldn't complain about in the home. I personally like having the extra diagnostic pressure gauge of the Tea (even if I don't necessarily need it on a daily basis) and also happen to think it looks better.
See, eventually it does boil (heh) down to a subjective experience.
Remember that the pressure stat can be adjusted also to increase steaming pressure. It could be that adjusting it for good comparable steam to other similar machines causes the brew temp to be too hot (distance from HX to brewhead could be different?).
This doesn't work on small boiler machines like the Isomacs or Giottos. On these, the pressure drops to .8 to .9 bar when the steam valve is opened, and the heater runs continuously. This makes for steadier steam than on the Oscar where the heater cycles, but it means that any pressure setting higher than this "steam point" will have no influence.
This doesn't work on small boiler machines like the Isomacs or Giottos. On these, the pressure drops to .8 to .9 bar when the steam valve is opened, and the heater runs continuously. This makes for steadier steam than on the Oscar where the heater cycles, but it means that any pressure setting higher than this "steam point" will have no influence.
So then pressure stat adjustment is only useful for brewing temp? Seems a little odd.. isn't 1 bar = 1 atm.. if the pressure in the boiler was < 1 bar, the steam wouldn't come out under pressure. Or maybe I'm misremembering my calibrations...
So then pressure stat adjustment is only useful for brewing temp? Seems a little odd.. isn't 1 bar = 1 atm.. if the pressure in the boiler was < 1 bar, the steam wouldn't come out under pressure. Or maybe I'm misremembering my calibrations...
I'm not a very technical guy but I had asked Todd (or tech) about increasing the pressure stat. She said it would do something to the brew temp and create steam from the group head as well. Above my head...but I took it as a "don't do it".
As for steaming with the Giotto...I always use a 20oz pitcher for my morning latte. My guess is that I use about 10oz or so of milk. I get the swirl that Schomer looks for. I do not yet get the texture I desire. I know the machine can do it but it will take longer.
I wouldn't recommend a tip mod for the Livia, yet a tip replacement. The Giotto tip fits right on and combined w/ the LIvia's pressure you'll get tornado like swirls in the pitcher. Fantastic texture.
I've yet to use a machine that has the steaming of the Livia with the shots of the Giotto (or other E61 style group). I'll keep working on the Giotto steaming though and will let y'all know :)
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