Posted Mon Sep 12, 2005, 10:06am Subject: High end home machine decision
I'm in the early stages of looking for a new machine for home use. I mainly do espressos, Americanos, capps, and lattes for myself, rarely for guests, so this is really all about me. :-) I love high tech and nice equipment that works well. I buy my beans from a local roaster the day they are roasted.
I currently use a Giotto (standard) and a Mazzer Mini on the kitchen countertop, Cuno undersink filter for my water supply. Getting 220 to this location would be difficult and ugly, so I'm limited to 110 there. I could move my setup to the laundry/dog room, kinda crowded, lint and dog hair, but I can get 220 there with relative ease and it has a sink and a drain. My wife would prefer it stay in the kitchen as long as it fits.
I am looking at the following options:
1) I can get either the Genius I or the Genius IIc in the $3K USD range from a local dealer who can install it and service it. The only problem is the size of the machine, too tall for my kitchen countertop but would fit in the laundry room.
2) I can get the Astoria Sibilla SAE1 for $3-4K from the same dealer, same local support. Interesting design, looks like a man with a big nose wearing glasses. Too tall for kitchen as well, so would be relegated to the laundry room.
3) I am drawn to the Synesso Cyncra, love the look. According to Synesso, the only difference between the 110 and 220 single group is recovery time, not a significant issue given my use. However, the single group has no hot water dispenser (Synesso says get a tea pot) and I find I use the hot water dispenser on my Giotto a lot. The 2 group has hot water, but it's 220.
4) The LM home machine, when it is finally sold, is another contender. Early pics look something like the Cyncra, not sure if the single group will have a hot water dispenser.
I'm trying to balance kitchen convenience with laundry room 220, hot water or no, and local service vs no local service, all the various permutations. 1 & 2 have the tremendous benefit of competent local service. 3 & 4 would fit in the kitchen, no problem. We will probably do a kitchen redesign in the next 1-3 years with new cabinets and counters, so I could possibly move a tall machine back into the kitchen at that time.
Having no personal experience with machines of this class, I'm looking for any insight you may be able to offer. Relative importance of the various factors? Machines I haven't considered? I would appreciate any input.
cinergi Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2004 Posts: 48 Location: Austin, TX Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Synesso Cyncra Grinder: Versalab M3
Posted Mon Sep 12, 2005, 11:29am Subject: Re: High end home machine decision
I can definitely recommend the Synesso. I just got a 1 group 220v and couldn't be happier with the machine. The service and support you get from Mark Barnett is second to none. The lack of a hot water spout has not been a problem for me given the power of the steam wand. It takes no time at all to steam up 16 oz. of water to 200F+. If you are considering the synesso I would strongly recommend getting the 220v version if at all possible. The cost is the same and it was easier than I thought to install a 220v outlet. The latest model has a dual loop element allowing you to use it at either 1000 or 2000 watts.
itinerant Senior Member Joined: 1 Sep 2005 Posts: 901 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Mon Sep 12, 2005, 11:52am Subject: Re: High end home machine decision
Yeah, Synesso gave me the 'get a teapot' line too. Bought a Cimbali Jr. instead which runs just fine off 110V & has the hot water tap. Very good steaming power & couldn't be happier with the quality in the cup. Around 3K.. you could give Chris @ChrisCoffee.com a call to find out more about the Cimbali.
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,758 Location: SFCA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Monster Mia (for now)_ Grinder: Monster Cimballi Junior Vac Pot: Not any more Drip: never Roaster: Ecco, Stumptown, Intelli,...
Posted Mon Sep 12, 2005, 1:40pm Subject: Re: High end home machine decision
Well... these are not really comparable machines. Comparing the Astoria or the Genius (for example) to the Synesso (or, in theory, to the LM) is really unfair to the former machines.
If money were no object for me, I'd be looking at: - Synesso. Styling is not lovely. Other than that I see no downsides. (What are you using your hot water spout for? If you're using it for Americanos, you're making the drink with water that is FAR too hot. I find that the only things I ever use the hot water spout for are heating up cups and wetting rags.) - LM home machine. Hard to know what it's going to be like, but the prototype was pretty damn awesome. Concern is that you don't know what it's gonna be. - Speedster. Yeah - it's out of the price range and they're hard/impossible to find but I'm sure that enough cash would convince Kees to make you one.
espressoDOM Senior Member Joined: 1 May 2003 Posts: 2,189 Location: Bay Area Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: WEGA Lyra (vibe) Grinder: Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: (no more coffee equipment) Drip: French Press Roaster: Hot Top Roaster; Fresh Roast...
Posted Mon Sep 12, 2005, 3:37pm Subject: Re: High end home machine decision
you really think the hot water spout is too hot for an Americano on most machines or only on professional machines?! I did it all the time on my WEGA..... oh how I miss her...
plus I use it for instant tea for my wife and for me when I have an upset tummy
DOM...evil genius ...Up to no good in espresso at all times... VIVA la parts de Espresso
Posted Mon Sep 12, 2005, 4:53pm Subject: Re: High end home machine decision
malachi Said:
What are you using your hot water spout for? If you're using it for Americanos, you're making the drink with water that is FAR too hot. I find that the only things I ever use the hot water spout for are heating up cups and wetting rags.)
Aha - so it would seem Mr. Malachi (if that is your REAL name)....
However, one of the stealthiest weapons in the WWDP arsenal is the WEGA machine's patented dual HX system. You see, the hot water wand on WEGA machines is actually a secondary HX loop running in tandem with the brew HX. WWDP soldiers can easily regulate the temperature of their hot water by simply flushing overheated water from the spout. When I make an Americano, I purge the water HX for about 5 oz. I then let the HX rebound for about 30 seconds, and the next 4 oz draw for my Americano is an idyllic 165F.
It would seem that Synesso did not want to go toe to toe against the WWDP, so they wisely decided to drop the hot water dsipenser altogether.
Too hot as in you prefer a cooler drinking temperature? Or are you saying that 194F or so will somehow degrade the Americano flavour? Coffee is brewed around 200F & I drink my Americanos around 180F.. so I'm not seeing the problem you allude to. I'll have to try a comparison of using say 194 & 180F water.. but would be interested in hearing why you think that water is too hot.
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,758 Location: SFCA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Monster Mia (for now)_ Grinder: Monster Cimballi Junior Vac Pot: Not any more Drip: never Roaster: Ecco, Stumptown, Intelli,...
Posted Mon Sep 12, 2005, 5:08pm Subject: Re: High end home machine decision
194 degrees? Unless you're talking about the Wega (or the Conti or one of the other machines that allows for cooled hot water) I think it's going to be unlikely that you'll see that temp (and with most HX machines you'll, in fact, be seeing a temp that is higher still).
itinerant Senior Member Joined: 1 Sep 2005 Posts: 901 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Mon Sep 12, 2005, 8:49pm Subject: Re: High end home machine decision
malachi Said:
194 degrees? Unless you're talking about the Wega (or the Conti or one of the other machines that allows for cooled hot water) I think it's going to be unlikely that you'll see that temp (and with most HX machines you'll, in fact, be seeing a temp that is higher still).
Sorry, a typo on my part. 204F (not 194F), measured into a styrofoam cup with a quick reading thermometer on my Cimbali. The point that I was trying to make is that if the water is reasonably close to 200 (brew temp), it should be OK. And I am presuming that yours was that a HX machine (which runs hotter) may be providing scorching hot water, close to the boiling point.
corey Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2003 Posts: 1,148 Location: Perth, Australia Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Synesso, Marzocco Grinder: Mazzer Robur
Posted Tue Sep 13, 2005, 1:38am Subject: Re: High end home machine decision
The water coming out of a tea spout on a LM or similar machine is far too hot for long blacks (americanos), Chris is correct. Water coming out of the steam boiler will burn the coffee oils as the coffee enters the hot water. This is the reason why new LM GB 5's feature adjustable hot water spout temps. You could do what we do, which is to put 15mls of cold into each long black using a 15ml measuring tip (the kind a bartender uses for spirit bottles) attached to a bottle of cold water. We place this into the cup before the coffee enters.
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