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Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Rematch of Rocky...  
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Sun Aug 24, 2003, 7:53pm
Subject: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

This is the follow-up report to Craig's excellent ** Rocky SS Doser vrs Mazzer Mini Shootout **.  My coffee buddy Richard and I convened at my house yesterday morning with La Valentina, Mazzer Mini, and Rocky.  After a quick calibration, we pulled three shots each then ranked them on a number of criteria: coloring, crema, flecking, cinnamon "dusting", body, flavor, finish, smoothness, and time to blonding.  All the shots were very good to excellent (1.25-1.5oz double ristrettos of Intelligentsia Black Cat extracted at 198F in 23-27 seconds).

Our Part I conclusion: For the Valentina/Rocky/Mazzer combo, the grinder difference was notable but not astounding.  Frankly this was my expectation.  But there was a surprise in store... later that same day, I went over Richard's house to help diagnose a nagging problem with shots he's been pulling lately (see Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing).  I brought along my grinder figuring that once we were satisfied the problem was solved, we could turn to comparing Rocky/Mazzer Mini with Silvia.  Should be fun, right?

Our Part II conclusion: For the Silvia/Rocky/Mazzer combo, the grinder difference was unmistakeable.  That was a big surprise and I barely was able to extract the Mazzer Mini from his kitchen.  He's talking upgrade now (hey, first finish paying me for Silvia/Rocky!  ;-).

I'll readily admit that I was skeptical of a significant "Mazzer" difference.  I recognized it was an improvement, but figured it was marginal.  Maybe the alignment of Earth and Mars had something to do with it, or the reverse temperature surfing made the difference.  We were both so surprised by the "rock my world" calibre of the first Silvia/Mazzer shot that we figured it was a fluke.  Next shot was nearly as good and easily ranked as "excellent."  The third was also very good.

Our final conclusion: The Mazzer Mini is indeed consistently better than Rocky for both Silvia and La Valentina.  We plan another rematch, this time with both combos in one kitchen and true blind taste tests.  There are a number of other variables that I'm leaving out of this report that we'll need to settle before the rematch.  Stay tuned for the Silvia/Rocky/Mazzer versus Valentina/Rocky/Mazzer Slugfest II.

-- Dan

 
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,249
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
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Posted Sun Aug 24, 2003, 9:36pm
Subject: Re: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

Excellent factual report report as usual Dan!
I didn't really want to hook up my DVM to measure the pour temps in the cup using MG & getting a full cascading Guinness effect, bottom to the top of that Malabar Gold 4oz glass, settled crema @ ". I had measured the temps earlier only with water pulls, & I know there would obviously be a difference in temps & extraction times (resistance of the coffee puck) between water & the viscosity of the MG pull. S.G (Specific Gravity of water with a brewing hydrometer, standard calibraton is @ 60F & is 1.000.

I have the correction factors for different temps, & I'll post the corrected temp for a water pull temp of say, 201F. Depending on TDS,(interfering with a proper reading) & extracted sugars,I'd be interested in the S.G. of say a ristretto pull with the stock Rancilio double basket 14gr, double LM ridged 17gr, the LM style 21gr triple basket with LM style Ascaso 15 angled portafilter handle @ that 201F temp.

Now that I'm reading your in depth coverage of the shot criteria measurments, I should have gone into more detailed depth of description also. {:-D

 
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Mon Aug 25, 2003, 4:56am
Subject: Re: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

CraigA Said:

Now that I'm reading your in depth coverage of the shot criteria measurment's, I should have gone into more detailed depth of description also. {:-D

Posted August 25, 2003 link

In-depth?  Richard and I are far from taste experts but fortunately we're comparing shots of the same blend that we use daily.  We agreed up front to focus on "subjective" criteria, e.g., no rulers to measure crema depth.  Here's an example of my notes for a given shot using some of my own "made up" terminology:

above average color, more flecking than prior shot, slight halo, some cinnamon dusting, very good body, minor bitter finish (better than last)

More precisely, that was shot #2 Valentina/Mazzer.

-- Dan

 
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,249
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
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Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Mon Aug 25, 2003, 9:03am
Subject: Re: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

dan_kehn Said:

In-depth?  Richard and I are far from taste experts but fortunately we're comparing shots of the same blend that we use daily.


Yeah Dan,

What I meant/mean is that you have more rating categorys/criteria to rate the shots than my more simplistic methods.

I went off on a bit of a tangent there..., gotta not drink three doubles & a triple, & then type! {:-O

 
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TimEggers
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TimEggers
Joined: 3 Oct 2004
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Location: Tiskilwa, Illinois
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Espresso: QM Anita, Cappuccino Amore
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Mazzer SJ
Vac Pot: Antique McKee, Santos
Drip: Pour Over, Bodum Presses
Roaster: RK Drum
Posted Sun Feb 11, 2007, 11:40pm
Subject: Re: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

I'd love to see you guys put up a Rocky modified like mine against a Mazzer.

Why?

Because I feel my mod offers a unique feature I didn't see on others mods.  The elimination of grind drift.  I noticed a dramatic improvement in flavor from the very second I added this mod.  The flavor became cleaner and more defined in my espresso.  I didn't change anything else in my technique.  But the results today are clearly better than yesterdays, and this mod is the only change.

Speculation:

My mod offers a comparable rigidity in the grinding environment as seen in the Mazzers with its high-tension spring configuration.

(a bold statement)  I just can't dismiss the changes I experienced today.  In 9 doubles each and every shot was better than yesterday.  I can see getting lucky on one shot or two, but all of them?

Ok so there's your challenge...

TimEggers: Picture 006.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,249
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Mon Feb 12, 2007, 7:15am
Subject: Re: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

I read your post on the other thread Tim about your stepless mod, very nice! {:-)
It only make sense that you had the improvment because you'll have a dramatic degree of stepless control over Rockys stepped adjustments which are or the order of 15 secs for every click., & with the tightness of the pipe clamps & grippy plastic tubing, you're eliminating the upper burr carrier play.

On my link that I posted earlier on the other thread, to where I did the testing with my Rocky., the play is substantial., if you happened to have read it here.

 
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TimEggers
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TimEggers
Joined: 3 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,946
Location: Tiskilwa, Illinois
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: QM Anita, Cappuccino Amore
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Mazzer SJ
Vac Pot: Antique McKee, Santos
Drip: Pour Over, Bodum Presses
Roaster: RK Drum
Posted Mon Feb 12, 2007, 9:45am
Subject: Re: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

I read your post on the other thread Tim about your stepless mod, very nice! {:-)
It only make sense that you had the improvment because you'll have a dramatic degree of stepless control over Rockys stepped adjustments which are or the order of 15 secs for every click., & with the tightness with the pipe clamps you're eliminating the upper burr carrier play.

On my link that I posted earlier on the other thread, to where I did the testing with my Rocky., the play is substantial., if you happened to have read it here.

Yeah Craig I have read your remarks there and the observations seem spot on!  This mod should last me until my next upgrade (hey I can't completely avoid "the bug")...  ;)

 
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PaulTheRoaster
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PaulTheRoaster
Joined: 2 Aug 2005
Posts: 345
Location: Champaign, Illinois, USA
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Espresso: Faema C84 A/1, Eterna leva...
Grinder: Compak K6, Solis Classic
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Roaster: RK drum
Posted Mon Feb 12, 2007, 2:34pm
Subject: Re: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

Tim, I did a cheap stepless mod to my RR45 a while back and also noticed a big difference. It, too, had a lot of play in the burr carrier and now is very stiff. One weekend I borrowed a Mazzer Major and didn't notice much of a difference between the two (on a pidded, pressure-adjusted silvia). But I only had 6 months of espresso-making under my belt at the time, so I'd have to redo the test to be convinced.
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fifthgen
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Location: Eastern MA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Isomac Zaffiro, Astoria CKX
Grinder: Maz. Major, Casadio, Isomac...
Drip: Capresso st600 chemex,
Roaster: Karma Coffee, Black Cat...
Posted Wed Nov 7, 2007, 9:53pm
Subject: Re: Rematch of Rocky versus Mazzer Mini
 

So ar you willing to share the stepless mod for the rossi?  I am surely curious?  Thanks

 
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