Posted Sun Nov 13, 2005, 10:35am Subject: Re: Introducing the La Marzocco GS3
AndyS Said:
As a "card-carrying" armchair engineer, I'm puzzled by your statement. Correlating physical measurements and in-cup results is folly?
Physical measurement are irrelevant? I guess you're saying that a professional barista should be able to make excellent espresso with a pot of boiling water and a sock. Please explain.
Hi Andy. Um... I didn't hear Dan say anything of the sort. In fact, I thought he was agreeing with your observation, not disputing it.
Making coffee is not that different from creating other edibles in the kitchen. Some people get great results by weighing their ingredients to the nearest microgram, and others do equally well by adding a dash of this and a bit of that.
Personally, I agree that there can be too much focus on equipment and measurements. Not because I dispute the scientific method - far from it! (I am trained as a biochemist, and made my living for several years by weighing out ingredients to the nearest microgram. :-) But there are many variables in the making of espresso, and not all can be controlled at home. The commercial environment, where you pull one shot after another after another, is a different matter. At home, where you might pull one or two shots in the morning followed by another couple of shots in the evening... forget it. You ain't gonna get true reproducibility. Your beans will have staled just that much, your grind will be off just that much, your dose will vary just that much, or your tamp, or the timing of your flush or temp surfing, etc... and the shot will be different.
Since I'm not running a coffee house, reproducibility is not my goal. I love the infinite variability in the cup, and the unique character of each pour.
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,735 Location: se portland, or Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Mistrals, Linea, Briccoletta Grinder: Roburs, Super Jollys,... Vac Pot: Hario, Bodum, Cona Drip: never Roaster: Probat 60kg, 15kg, 5kg,...
Posted Sun Nov 13, 2005, 11:09am Subject: Re: Introducing the La Marzocco GS3
dan_kehn Said:
Absolutely!
It's fun to "lead with the wallet," investing in increasingly expensive espresso equipment. However, I believe most consumers with a few thousand dollars burning a hole in their pockets would be wiser to invest in training than upgrades. The barista training at Intelligentsia is a reasonably priced introduction ($175 for half-day) and David Schomer offers an intensive training course ($1000 for three days).
These days I find myself dreaming less about the latest hot espresso machine and more about learning from the very best of the industry. What, the end of upgrade fever!?! Did I just say that?
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,735 Location: se portland, or Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Mistrals, Linea, Briccoletta Grinder: Roburs, Super Jollys,... Vac Pot: Hario, Bodum, Cona Drip: never Roaster: Probat 60kg, 15kg, 5kg,...
Posted Sun Nov 13, 2005, 11:13am Subject: Re: Introducing the La Marzocco GS3
cannonfodder Said:
Once you reach a point, your skill set no longer becomes as drastic of a factor. When you can repeatedly produce the same quality (or very close to the same quality) in the cup from shot to shot, the equipment does begin to play a part.
While I agree in the abstract, I have to be honest and tell you that, after years as a professional barista and tens if not hundreds of thousands of shots... after extensive training from folks ranging from Stephen Vick to David Schomer to Aaron de Lazzer... after barista jams and barista comps... after obsessive focus and experimentation... I'm still not at that point.
I wish I could say I were. And there are days (or at least parts of days) when I feel like I'm at least close to that point. But espresso is a humbling pursuit.
Ian Moderator Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 1,125 Location: England
Espresso: Euro2000,Rancilio Grinder: Mazzer,La Cimbali Vac Pot: Cona-->CraigA Drip: Belgique for emergencies Roaster: Primas with variac
Posted Sun Nov 13, 2005, 11:31am Subject: Re: Introducing the La Marzocco GS3
dan_kehn Said:
I fully agree. Furthermore, I assert that armchair engineers feel compelled to correlate physical measurements (temperature, pressure, or whatever is the metric du jour) and the in-cup results. I'm guility of this myself and have accepted it as folly. It was a humbling and liberating experience.
Posted Sun Nov 13, 2005, 1:05pm Subject: Re: Vibe vs. rotary.
MarkPrince Said:
Since I've been accused elsewhere of trying to stifle this thread :D, I figured I'd bring it back up with a new thought on the off track topic - vibe vs. rotary.
I can't explain why I didn't bring this up before... but there's one major factor that I think contributes to vibe's lower quality shots vs a rotary pump that really should be discussed.
I think part of the reason why vibe performs less is because (at least in every single vibe equipped machine I've tested in a HX machine, and even in some single boiler machines) is that they are not and can not handle multi tasking.
Situation: you're brewing a shot. You've flushed the E61, you've watched the timing on the cycle on the steam boiler, and all signs point to go. You start brewing. Midway through the brew, the machine's brainbox says "wait, I need to autofill the steam boiler" and it kicks in. Wallah, your pressure at the group is reduced, and many times visibly. Affects the shot and extraction.
Also, most of these machines designed for Europower-spec can't even handle a cycle during a brew - the pump loses pressure. You can see it in the espresso flow, and you can hear it in the sound of the vibe. Three notable machines (out of many) I've noticed this in:
- FF!! X1 with it's super tiny deadband, will cycle 2, 3 or 4 times during a shot pour, and you can see the output volume per second change. - Isomac Millenium - minor reduction in pressure during a cycle, medium reduction during autofill, major reduction during cycle / autofill. - Expobar Office - ditto to the Millenium, but a bit more even (less pressure loss).
Rotary pumps, on the other hand, seem to handle multitasking much better. I'm not saying by any stretch that there's no reduction or change in pump pressure when the pump is called to multitask or similar, but in eveyr machine I've ever tested with a rotary pump, I've never seen even the slightest visual indication of a change in pump pressure at the spouts.
If you're brewing at 9BAR or 10.5BAR (what a lot of the HX machines seem to brew at!) and all of a sudden the pressure goes down to 7BAR or less, it's going to affect extraction quality.
My machine is a rotary Wega Lyra. In ~ 1,500 shots I've produced on it, the autofill has never activated during a pull. Just lucky? Maybe. Or maybe the logic built into the circuit board prevents it? Couldn't this be easily achieved with simple circuitry in a vibe pump machine?
I'd be more worried about how much the pressure/temperature in the boiler drops when the autofil comes on. Mine drops from ~ 1.1 bars down to 0.7 bars when it autofills. That will hurt a rotary machine just as much as a vibe machine. What does that do to the brew temperature??
Maybe it's just oversight, but so far, none of the "rotary=superior" believers have stated explicitly that the taste testing they participated in or reviewed was preceded by careful equalization to ensure that the only difference they were tasting was due to the type of pump, and not due to other controllable factors (brew pressure, temperature, dose, barista skills, etc.)
If not, how can anyone say rotary=better with any confidence? Don't take this the wrong way. I'm NOT saying I believe there's no difference. I just won't accept that there is a difference without better evidence.
Posted Sun Nov 13, 2005, 3:02pm Subject: Re: Introducing the La Marzocco GS3
You guys are the worst negotiators in creation. By the time this thread is done, the GS3 is going to retail for $10,000.
Now, repeat after me: "Oh, LM's bringing out a consumer machine? Lots of those around. Two big boilers you say? Interesting. But I don't entertain 50 people very often. Besides, the economy is looking pretty shaky with interest rates climbing like they are. Takes up a lot of bar space, too. I don't think I could talk my wife into one, unless the price was pretty reasonable."
Doubtful. While we might think the home market is the GS3's sweetspot, it's not. Catering services, small shops, even kiosks are more likely candidates. A business will only go so far to buy the latest bling-bling machine before turning to less expensive nearly-as-good alternatives. I'm sure Bill & company didn't go through all this trouble to sell at Versalab-like volumes.
MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 4,622 Location: Vancouver Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Frankenstein'ed LM Linea Grinder: Anfim Super Caimano Vac Pot: 1922 Silex Drip: Krups Moka Brew Roaster: Hottop
Posted Sun Nov 13, 2005, 5:46pm Subject: Re: Introducing the La Marzocco GS3
dan_kehn Said:
Doubtful. While we might think the home market is the GS3's sweetspot, it's not. Catering services, small shops, even kiosks are more likely candidates. A business will only go so far to buy the latest bling-bling machine before turning to less expensive nearly-as-good alternatives. I'm sure Bill & company didn't go through all this trouble to sell at Versalab-like volumes.
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