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Espresso: Espresso Machines
Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Pretty new toys...

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Kristi
Senior Member

Joined: 6 Oct 2005
Posts: 2,281
Location: Boston
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Evo w silvia wand
Grinder: Macap M4 mod to d&s-less
Roaster: (Jeff at Redbirdcoffee)

Posted Sat Feb 25, 2006, 2:07pm Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

Reighlok Said: However it does not have a plumbed drip tray.... so if you did leave the steam wand open it would flood your kitchen with the full contents of its 3 liter water reservoir + the .75 litter boiler. Only after it flooded your kitchen would it then fry the element.... Posted February 24, 2006 link Yeah - so that eliminated 95 % of espresso machines on the market - LOL In the Columbina, the water slowly turns to steam and when the water level gets too low, it fills the boiler. On the Isomace w/o the autorefil feature (and my Eliand) the water turns to steam and the element burns out and it then just sits there innocently staring at you. It does not flow into the drip tray . Actually that WAS a prob I had with the Silvia with the way the steam valve was constructed - it would expand when used and contract when cooled and when I turned it on next time., I HAD to check to turn the steam valve off or it would at least vent steam while warming up - don't know that it ever vented water though.

#--> I recommend Eric Svendson's adapter and thermometer for E61s (also Silvia) : easy surfing! # My photo albums have moved to http://picasaweb.google.com/krislema2

Reighlok
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Sep 2005
Posts: 675
Location: North Dallas, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Feb 25, 2006, 2:11pm
Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

Kristi Said:

The main "prob" with these machines is that they cannot be left on 24/7 because the temp slowly turns all the water to steam and the heater frys.

Posted February 25, 2006 link

I don't think the water level will continue to get lower if the steam cannot leave the system. Am I wrong or does you machine have a steam (or water) leak? If I am wrong, what is happening to the water?

Sure some turns to steam, but that raises the pressure in the system (because steam is less dense) and then the water has a higher boiling point which will eventually (pretty quickly) equalize with the steam pressure. This fact allows pressurestats to maintain temperature by maintaining pressure. In a closed boiler, the water level would stay basically the same no matter what the heating element did. Am I missing something?

Reighlok
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Sep 2005
Posts: 675
Location: North Dallas, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Feb 25, 2006, 2:13pm
Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

Kristi Said:

In the Columbina, the water slowly turns to steam and when the water level gets too low, it fills the boiler. On the Isomace w/o the autorefil feature (and my Eliand) the water turns to steam and the element burns out and it then just sits there innocently staring at you. It does not flow into the drip tray .

Posted February 25, 2006 link

Then it does sound like a steam leak. I think they should just try and fix that instead of just throw more water at the problem.

Kristi
Senior Member

Posted Sat Feb 25, 2006, 3:10pm Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

Reighlok Said: Then it does sound like a steam leak. I think they should just try and fix that instead of just throw more water at the problem. Posted February 25, 2006 link I think, you know far more than all these espresso machine designers, so if I were you I'd just pick one up and prove everybody wrong. Educate us all. That would be fun! Not all of the water will evaporate but quite enough to expose too much of the heating element which will encourage it to burn out.

#--> I recommend Eric Svendson's adapter and thermometer for E61s (also Silvia) : easy surfing! # My photo albums have moved to http://picasaweb.google.com/krislema2

singforsupper
Senior Member

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 537
Location: NY State
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Fiorenzato Bricoletta
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Vac Pot: -
Drip: French Press
Roaster: Caffe Fresco-Tony Sciandra...

Posted Mon Feb 27, 2006, 5:49am Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

Can someone state clearly what the differeces between the VOLANTE direct connect and the Brocoletta direct connect are? I don't see any except the gauge. I must be missing some things. TIA

Coffee, I must have coffee, And if anyone wants to give me a treat, Ah!, just give me some coffee! ~J. S. Bach Coffee Cantata, BWV 211~

1stline
Senior Member

Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 394
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None

Posted Mon Feb 27, 2006, 8:28pm Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

Reighlok Said: I don't think the water level will continue to get lower if the steam cannot leave the system. Am I wrong or does you machine have a steam (or water) leak? If I am wrong, what is happening to the water? Sure some turns to steam, but that raises the pressure in the system (because steam is less dense) and then the water has a higher boiling point which will eventually (pretty quickly) equalize with the steam pressure. This fact allows pressurestats to maintain temperature by maintaining pressure. In a closed boiler, the water level would stay basically the same no matter what the heating element did. Am I missing something? Posted February 25, 2006 link Eventually over time, water in a dual purpose, single boiler espresso machine will turn to steam and exit the OPV valve off the boiler. In the case with the Fiorenzato Colombina, you can not run the boiler dry because of too much steaming. As water is created to steam, the water level drops. In most machines of this sort, the boiler's heating element becomes exposed to air, and then cracks open upon the entry of cold water hitting the hot point of the heating element or starts to melt down. The auto water refill circuit on the Fiorenzato Colombina maintains the water level in the boiler.

Sincerely, Jim Piccinich Business Partner 1st-line Equipment, LLC www.1st-line.com Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/ YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso

Reighlok
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Sep 2005
Posts: 675
Location: North Dallas, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Feb 27, 2006, 8:39pm
Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

1stline Said:

Eventually over time, water in a dual purpose, single boiler espresso machine will turn to steam and exit the OPV valve off the boiler.

Posted February 27, 2006 link

So the OPV is a tiny steam leak in that even when the boiler isn't over pressure it still is relieving pressure....
Okay, I believe that.
Is it a simple compression device that when the pressure over powers the spring it opens slightly, but it never seals perfectly?

1stline Said:

In the case with the Fiorenzato Colombina, you can not run the boiler dry because of too much steaming. As water is created to steam, the water level drops. In most machines of this sort, the boiler's heating element becomes exposed to air, and then cracks open upon the entry of cold water hitting the hot point of the heating element or starts to melt down. The auto water refill circuit on the Fiorenzato Colombina maintains the water level in the boiler.

Posted February 27, 2006 link

That makes a lot of sense. The radical temperature change I could definitely believe could have a detrimental effect on the heating element.
Thanks for explaining that to me.

1stline
Senior Member

Posted Mon Feb 27, 2006, 8:51pm Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

singforsupper Said: Can someone state clearly what the differeces between the VOLANTE direct connect and the Brocoletta direct connect are? I don't see any except the gauge. I must be missing some things. TIA Posted February 27, 2006 link From what I see, a) additional gauge for brew pressure, b) body styling, c) stainless steel reinforcement on the 'box' under the drip tray d) star shaped steam knobs I was at Coffeefest in Wash, DC this past weekend, and I met with Stefano, the owner of Fiorenzato. Just to make you aware, he is unlike many espresso machine manufacturers. He started in this business as a master roaster to develop his own blends (he still owns his roastery). With this fundamental understanding of coffee beans and blending, he designs machines to extract coffees to their best potential. I had the opportunity to have dinner with him one evening, and the coffee served in the pub was absolutely horrible. I asked him which bean was in the blend. I guessed it was a lousy Costa Rican, but he was spot on that it was a bad Brazilian bean. I look forward to picking his brain more at the upcoming SCAA in Charlotte.

Sincerely, Jim Piccinich Business Partner 1st-line Equipment, LLC www.1st-line.com Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/ YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso

Kristi
Senior Member

Posted Mon Feb 27, 2006, 9:08pm Subject: Re: Pretty new toys from Fiorenzato

Reighlok Said: So the OPV is Posted February 27, 2006 link An Over Pressure Valve. In it's simplistic form it is a spring, inside a pipe, held by a stop pressing against a rubber gasket which in turn presses against a seat which makes the seal. via threading, the seat can be screwed in and out, if you will to lessen or increase the amount of water or whatever that gets through. A seal like this can easily control the pressure of water, but not so air. Add a 100 or 200 bucks and you get one that's better with air, but not perfect in the range we are talking. Do some searches on google for parts lists for espresso machines. I'll post one if I find one handy Google is your friend. This is the OPV assembly from the Silvia. I found it to be rather crude, but effective.

#--> I recommend Eric Svendson's adapter and thermometer for E61s (also Silvia) : easy surfing! # My photo albums have moved to http://picasaweb.google.com/krislema2

thechadzone
Senior Member

Joined: 3 Mar 2003
Posts: 140
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: 2 Pavoni europiccola &...
Grinder: 2 Pavoni Zips
Vac Pot: 1940's GE Stainless...
Drip: None
Roaster: None

Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006, 1:27am Subject: Fiorenzato commercial machines:

What about the pretty older Fiorenzatos? I have a small collection of Fiorenzato commercial machines consisting of a two group volumetric Fenice, a one group of the same model, and a Ducale micro lever two group. I love them. Fiorenzato machines have a bad reputation in my area because of a less reputable roaster who used to sell them. That's part of why I have three of them. I've used my one group machine in my kitchen for months at a time and loved doing so. It's 23" deep by 18" high, and 16" wide, and requires plumbing, but its been absolutely worth it. I think that this machine is at least as capable as those mentioned above, and if you see a nice one for sale, you should buy one before buying a new Fiorenzato prosumer model. My Fiorenzato Ducale two group has E-61 groupheads, and E-61 valves. Its on loan at a local cafe because I just can't bear to sell it.

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