Cranium Senior Member Joined: 19 Sep 2003 Posts: 30 Location: Orlando Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Isomac Millennium Grinder: Mazer Mini
Posted Sat Oct 11, 2003, 11:10am Subject: Re: WOW: KitchenAid Pro Line Espresso Machine
I went to one of the Williams-Sonama's around here and the machine is on the cover of their catalog. :)
Inside it doesn't have much information on the machine.
ON THE COVER Evolved from models used in coffee bars, this professional espresso maker has dual boilers, so brewing and steam-frothing are seamless. A high-pressure pump ensures optimal extraction. 16"x12"x12 1/2" high $799.95Available beginning December 2003
Interesting because the website says it's 12 1/2"x12"x16" high. Looking at it I would say that the website is accurate and the catalog is wrong.
Overall, I am skeptical that this machine will be a pro-sumer caliber machine. I think it will be a very good consumer model though. Given it's size and the fact that it has 2 boilers I think the boilers will turn out to be a bit small. But perhaps I'm a little biased because I just bought an isomac millennium. ;)
The real problem with distilled or de-ionized water is not its lack of conductivity, which could cause temporary functional problems, but the fact that that pure water is a universal solvent and will dissolve almost all metals. That's right, distilled water (known in the plumbing industry as "hungry water") will dissolve copper. So after using it for a while your machine will begin to leak and will eventually fail completely.
BellaJava Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2002 Posts: 429 Location: Jacksonville, FL Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Livia 90 Auto Grinder: Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: Silex, Cory, Hellem, Cona,... Drip: Chemex Roaster: Alp, FR+, HWG
Posted Sat Oct 11, 2003, 4:46pm Subject: Re: WOW: KitchenAid Pro Line Espresso Machine
glashoppah Said:
The real problem with distilled or de-ionized water is not its lack of conductivity, which could cause temporary functional problems, but the fact that that pure water is a universal solvent and will dissolve almost all metals. That's right, distilled water (known in the plumbing industry as "hungry water") will dissolve copper. So after using it for a while your machine will begin to leak and will eventually fail completely.
De-ionized (DI) water is exactly that - water that has essentially been stripped of all of its ions. Water likes to be balanced in its natural state, however, and this means that it adds ions to itself to achieve that goal. Therefore, DI water grabs ions from everything it touches that can be dissolved or absorbed. It is about a close as you can get to a Universal Solvent. In the case of an espresso machine, it will extract metals from all of the brass/copper fittings it has, and as an "added bonus" will also pull carbon dioxide from the air... swell!
Distilled water, on the other hand, is not nearly as agressive as deionized, and it is essentially balanced. It still has very little ions in it, but it is less aggressive than DI and also is not corrosive to most metallic internal parts. Apparent in the fact that most clothes iron manufacturers suggest you use distilled water.
There have been many discussions on Alt.Coffee concerning using distilled water in espresso machines... More towards the difference of opinions as to whether the distilled water lacks the minerals that contribute to enhanced extraction. I'm on the fence, I've tried bottled water, tap, filtered and distilled and only noticed a difference in the tap water.
Posted Mon Oct 13, 2003, 5:15pm Subject: Re: WOW: KitchenAid Pro Line Espresso Machine
hachcafe Said:
A quote from the Kitchenaid manual: “Brewing great espresso takes an understanding of what actually winds up in the cup when coffee is exposed to water. Roughly 30% of a roasted coffee bean is made of water soluble compounds. 20% of those compounds dissolve fairly easily, while the remaining 10% take a little more work – which is a good thing, because that less-soluble 10% is acidic, bitter, and generally unpleasant. The goal of all coffee making is to extract the easily dissolved oils and compounds while leaving the rest in the grounds. Before the espresso machine is even plugged in, you’ll need several elements to produce great coffee. Fresh Coffee Beans Great coffee can only come from fresh coffee beans, properly roasted. Many baristas recommend buying beans roasted no darker than a medium roast, the color of which appears as an even.”
Or if we take that text, run it through Google's language tools to turn it in to "Italian" and then translate it back to "English", we get this:
"The large expressed one of fermentation takes an understanding of that what really wraps in on in the cup when the coffee is exposed to water. Approximately 30% of a chicco of roasted coffee are made of residual the soluble ones in water. 20% of those residual ones reasonably dissolve easy, while to the remaining return of 10% a little more job? which it is a good thing, because those 10% of less-soluble is siliceo, bitter and generally unpleasant. The objective of all making of the coffee is to extract oils and the residual ones easy dissolved while it leaves the rest in the reasons. Before that the expressed machine of is even inserted, necessity of you?ll the several elements to produce large coffee. The fresh large coffee of the chicchi of coffee can only come from the chicchi of freschi coffees, braced correctly. Many baristas suggest to buy the fagioli brace not darker than a roast mean, the color of which appears like a uniform"
Chris
Please remember CoffeeKids throughout the year: www.coffeekids.org
Cranium Senior Member Joined: 19 Sep 2003 Posts: 30 Location: Orlando Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Isomac Millennium Grinder: Mazer Mini
Posted Mon Oct 13, 2003, 7:07pm Subject: Re: WOW: KitchenAid Pro Line Espresso Machine
glashoppah Said:
That's right, distilled water (known in the plumbing industry as "hungry water") will dissolve copper. So after using it for a while your machine will begin to leak and will eventually fail completely.
I have read the long 17 page article on alt.coffee written by Jim Schulman back in December of 2002. It is extremely informative and I for one will be buying an aquarium test kit to find the bottled water or mixture of RO water with tap water that creates an environment that either prevents or minimizes scaling and provides the best environment for great tasting espresso. Perhaps boiling my tap water will achieve the ideal results but only experimentation and testing can tell. I'm looking forward to it. And just in the nick of time before I receive my Isomac Millennium. :)
The manual from my Gaggia Classic machine has a blurb in the CAUTION section. It states: "To avoid your machine scaling up, use purified or bottled water."
While this goes against what has been stated here, this may work fine for the Gaggia Classic. After opening the machine I found it has about 3" of copper line. This 3" copper line went from the boiler to the steam nozzle. The boiler itself is Aluminum. Leaching in the steam line wouldn't be affected when drawing steam because the steam wouldn't carry the dissolved solids efficiently from the water so would always have 'leaching' of ions. But since the flow is very low and for some always stagnant (if you only draw shots) the damage to the line should be extremely low over a long period of time. The bonus being (perhaps from Gaggia's point of view) is that their customers don't have excessive scaling and the ones that do obviously aren't following the recommended guidlines published by the manufacturer.
Now on the flip side, the article stated: "The RO (or distilled) water didn't really produce an espresso, but rather an unbalanced, overly bright shot of strong coffee with crema on top." This nails my espresso to the tee! I have always wondered why my shots are so blonde compared to the photos I see on the Internet and in books. <g> I diluted the distilled water in the reservoir with 50% tap water, ran about half the contents of the reservoir through the machine to flush the boiler and my first shot was noticeably darker than what I normally produce. While there did seem to be a much better taste and more substance to the espresso, I can't honestly say for sure right now that it wasn't a psychological misperception of the taste (or what I wanted the taste to be). Time and testing (with the aquarium testing kit and my tastebuds) will yield much more reliable results.
I'd like to thank each of you that contributed to my education on water. I can now continue my quest for a "God" shot with a little more knowledge and confidence.
markm3 Senior Member Joined: 23 Dec 2001 Posts: 80 Location: Kpt,TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Reneka Single (Bizz) Solis... Grinder: La Pavoni & Grindmaster Vac Pot: Bodum Drip: Fetco Extractor,Chemex,... Roaster: None
Posted Tue Oct 14, 2003, 3:51pm Subject: Re: WOW: KitchenAid Pro Line Espresso Machine
hachcafe Said:
It's possible this machine may be the answer to the question: "What if the Gaggia Classic had twin boilers, pressure gauges, a three-way valve, innovative styling, and a fantastic instruction manual?"
Does that make this machine a Isomac killer?
No, but it is still a pretty good answer, and probably something that many, many consumers will be delighted to get their hands on for Christmas and beyond.
If the machine is made in Italy, as the KitchenAid description suggests, it may in fact be a collaboration between KitchenAid and Gaggia or some other established company, sold under the KA brand. That portafilter and steam wand look a little familiar. Who knows? Anybody?
Boiler heating elements never touch water: they are located on the outside of the boiler for superb brew temperature consistency and burnout-resistance.
Posted Tue Oct 14, 2003, 6:32pm Subject: Re: WOW: KitchenAid Pro Line Espresso Machine
markm3 Said:
Anyone else notice this?
Boiler heating elements never touch water: they are located on the outside of the boiler for superb brew temperature consistency and burnout-resistance.
Well it would make sense for KA to use existing and proven boiler and PF components in a new design. I would bet the boiler, PF, steam wand and second boiler, and so forth come from existing Gaggia models, and the machine itself may even be assembled by Gaggia for KA.
But the case is all metal, and in the KA color scheme and finish, and this is for sure a much more refined package than any home machine Gaggia has offered... the visuals on the machine are great...
chriscoffee Senior Member Joined: 5 Mar 2002 Posts: 202 Location: Albany Expertise: Professional
Posted Tue Oct 14, 2003, 8:42pm Subject: Re: WOW: KitchenAid Pro Line Espresso Machine
It seems to me that people are making some rather amazing conclusions about a machine that no one has even brewed a single shot with. I have to agree however about the manuals issue, that is why I write my own and spend hours on the phone helping people personally. As for the Italians attitude, I have seen, in only the last year, a slight change. I was just in Italy in September at the Cimbali plant where the Super Automatics are built. This trip was on them all expenses paid, they want to expand in the US, and want to talk to distributors in order to get ideas on how to increase sales in our country. I was impressed with the quality control and the pride they take in what they build. Henry Ford would totally change the way things were done if he were in charge. One individual assembles each machine; he follows the machine down the line and does it all. At the end of the line the look on their face is like the look of a proud new father. That's why Cimbali machines have extremely low failure rates. The bottom line is they just do things different over there and after visiting I'm not so sure we are doing it the right way. I have personally worked on hundreds of machines, mostly commercial, and you can't beat using quality components like nickel plated copper boilers and nine and one half pound E61 groups to produce temperature stability and excellent espresso one after another. I can't make any better espresso in a $5,000.00 commercial machine than I can in a Tea or Millenium. I expect people who buy Teas and Milleniums to keep them for 10 to 20 years and I may be wrong but the Kitchen Aid Machine doesn't appear to be the type of machine that will last any where near that long. You are going to have to send them back to authorized service centers for repair even after the warranty, these service centers are not going to sell you parts and step you through how to repair the machine your self. Repairing machines is how hey make their money. In conclusion I only ask that readers play devils advocate and think things out more thoroughly before coming to conclusions all because of a pretty looking machine with no track record and a very nice manual.
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