CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Machines, New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Espresso: Espresso Machines
New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Quality Espresso Machines

Imported Italian Espresso Machines, Coffee Machines & accessories for all your coffee needs!
www.thecoffeebrewers.com

Not Logged in:

updated topics	new posts	new unanswered
search	faq	sign up

Discussions > Espresso > Machines > New kid on the...

view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics

showing page 5 of 7

first page | last page

previous page | next page

Author

Messages

gammeltoft
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Roaster: Alpenröst

Posted Tue Sep 26, 2006, 11:29pm Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Hi Luca, Thanks for the comments. The Marte has a vibe pump. Regarding pre-infusion, I may have gotten something wrong as regards terminology, but if the lever cam opens the brew path before engaging the pump it is possible to do a manual "lever-style" preinfusion of the puck, before raising the lever completely, engaging the pump and having the normal ramp up of pressure as the chambers in the grouphead fill. Now, my Marte was set up to engage the brew switch before opening the brew path, which is why is moved the switch back some milimeters. I've tried a few different P-Stat settings, but unfortnately my Scace gear didn't work so it has been tastebud-tweaking only (Malachi didn't live in vain..). I seem to get it right for most of my blends (brazil--guatemale-indonesian-Rwanda-ethiopia combo) at around 1.1-1.2, anything higher than that and I get too much of a dark ring and bitter flavours coming through. Haven't tried to take it much lower than 1.1 for sake of steam pressure, but would suspect it to yield decent results for some of the lower temperatyre blends at 1.0 as well. Regarding steam tips I also started out by plugging two of the holes, which is why I was happy to find a perfectly similar tip with two holes. I'd be interested in hearing your experiences with the BFC 4-hole on the Marte as well though. Vauw, it really seems like you've taken a liking to the Marte as well. Glad to hear so! Did I really hear you say that it outperformed a Linea? Swapping some beans would be cool and I'd definetely try and show this machine off to some more people here in Copenhagen. Though I may have a problem getting beans to you with the Aussie rules on bringing in food items? Warm regards on a very rainy day in the cold North Thomas

Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water. ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

gammeltoft
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Roaster: Alpenröst

Posted Wed Sep 27, 2006, 1:00am Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Hi again Luca, In your blog you said: "Finally, we come to Dave's Maver machine. This is a little prosumer HX. Again, the thermosyphon has been balanced to require almost no cooling flush, which is a definite plus in my books. The drip tray is massive and the whole thing is made with what seems to be the same quality stainless that the ECM Giotto is made of. In fact, the story behind this machine really parallels the BFC machines - Dave visited Maver, told them what he wanted and they did it for him. Again, most manufacturers use the same parts ..." I am interested in hearing more about this. Did the Marte come into being because of Dave? I sounds believable since a) Maver seemed to produce only thermoblock machines prior to the Marte and b) Few producers seems to instinctively get where to put in a slightly more costly component (e.g. the ball-mounted wands and high grade OPV/safety valve) in an overall budget machine. Best Thomas

Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water. ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

Luca
Moderator

Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,658
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Espresso: H: Maver W: FB-80
Grinder: H: Super Jolly W: Brasilia...
Vac Pot: Hario TCA-2
Roaster: Sample Roaster at Work

Posted Wed Sep 27, 2006, 1:34am Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

gammeltoft Said: I am interested in hearing more about this. Did the Marte come into being because of Dave? I sounds believable since a) Maver seemed to produce only thermoblock machines prior to the Marte and b) Few producers seems to instinctively get where to put in a slightly more costly component (e.g. the ball-mounted wands and high grade OPV/safety valve) in an overall budget machine. Posted September 27, 2006 link No, the Marte was definitely already being manufactured. I gather that Dave went over, checked them out, liked them and got some with a few different parts - restrictors and such - so that he could test them out over here. When he places his next order, he'll be able to get the machines with the restrictors that he wants without having to swap them over himself. Interesting that you refer to it as a budget machine. Maybe it was really cheap for you because you dealt with the factory. All prosumer machines are f&@#ing expensive in Australia, and this one is no exception. I don't really see how you'd categorise it as a 'budget' machine beyond getting a good deal on it ... it's got it where it counts. gammeltoft Said: The Marte has a vibe pump. Regarding pre-infusion, I may have gotten something wrong as regards terminology, but if the lever cam opens the brew path before engaging the pump it is possible to do a manual "lever-style" preinfusion of the puck, before raising the lever completely, engaging the pump and having the normal ramp up of pressure as the chambers in the grouphead fill. Posted September 26, 2006 link Yeah, the ones that we have got certainly have vibe pumps. I always thought that this style of preinfusion required line pressure to be effective ... in other words, that one of the lever positions doesn't really do anything in the prosumer class e61 machines. Could you do me a favour and check it out without a portafilter in place? I would be surprised if you got much of anything happening, but, then again, I really haven't played around with these machines much. Like you said, I thought that preinfusion really came down to the gicleur doing its work ... but I'm no machine technician. I just know that tasty brown stuff comes out ;P I've tried a few different P-Stat settings, but unfortnately my Scace gear didn't work so it has been tastebud-tweaking only (Malachi didn't live in vain..). I seem to get it right for most of my blends (brazil--guatemale-indonesian-Rwanda-ethiopia combo) at around 1.1-1.2, anything higher than that and I get too much of a dark ring and bitter flavours coming through. Haven't tried to take it much lower than 1.1 for sake of steam pressure, but would suspect it to yield decent results for some of the lower temperatyre blends at 1.0 as well. Good to hear. I've never really bothered quantitatively measuring temperature; like you, I go for taste. I have only briefly played with the BFC prosumer machines, but I remember it being quite easy to tweak the pstat for taste on them. I'm glad to hear that the more thougtful thermosyphon in the Maver hasn't resulted in it losing this tweakability (not that I can think of a reason why it would). I can really picture myself buying one of these, putting a barksdale 0.05bar pstat in it and drilling an adjustment hole through the casing ;P Vauw, it really seems like you've taken a liking to the Marte as well. Glad to hear so! Did I really hear you say that it outperformed a Linea? Well ... guess that I should tell the whole story. The extraction was chocolatier, but it wasn't as clean and clear as the linea's. The extraction was clearer and cleaner than the BFC machine, but, again, not as chocolatey. So somewhere inbetween two quite decent machines. (Dave's linea isn't pidded, but it has 0.6 ... or is it 0.7 mm gicleurs) The differences aren't huge ... I'd have to say that the Linea, BFC and Maver were probably equally easy to get good shots from (if you knew how to dose and flush them). So it didn't blow away the linea, but it certainly held its ground. The BFC slaughters both machines on milk, though! Anyhoo, that was just one quick trial and it might be that another blend would have performed differently, but it's enough of an experience for me to wish that I had one at home! Or maybe I'd prefer a Dalla Corte just for the amazing steam wand/tip that's on the BFC machines ... Swapping some beans would be cool and I'd definetely try and show this machine off to some more people here in Copenhagen. Though I may have a problem getting beans to you with the Aussie rules on bringing in food items? Well picked up. Customs would certainly had a field day if you tried to post some green, but they're OK with roasted beans. Anyhoo, no pressure one way or another - just let me know if anything comes up. Teemu has my email address. Cheers, Luca

General ramblings about coffee: http://www.pourquality.blogspot.com/ Reviews of Australian coffee: http://www.coffeereviewaustralia.com/

gammeltoft
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Roaster: Alpenröst

Posted Wed Sep 27, 2006, 3:09am Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Hi Luca, Well, maybe I am wrong on the budget part. Certainly the previous machines Maver have produced have been sold cheaper than their competitors, but then again, this thermoblock equipped E-61s. That said I do find that the casing much better finished on the Valentina and the internal parts layout bear the mark of an engineer who didn't sit down and thought out who best to do this in advance (bad location of OPV and power board). I noticed the price claimed on Australian E-Bay. Certainly fair for this machine, yet a lot more than I paid. You may be right in it just being me getting it for a good price directly from the factory. I have copied a CAD of the E-61 group (courtesy of Lino - home-barista.com) below. As for the pre-infusion part, my machine is set up so the lever can be in one of three states: 1) lever down: brew-path in group closed (the upper valve in the grouphead), pressure relief valve open to release pressure downwards (the lower valve in the grouphead), brew switch disengaged 2) lever in middle: brew path open, pressure relief valve closed, brew switch disengaged 3) lever all the way up: brew path open, pressure valve closed, brew switch engaged In contrast, many machines coming from the factory engages the brew switch behind the levetta before opening the brew path. This is probably one of the reasons for the many discussions as to what the "middle position" does on various fora. If the machine is set up in this way, it will only shorten preinfusion to stop in the middle position as pressure is building from having the pump on but not allowing it to enter the puck. Yet, by moving the placement of the brew switch a little backwards, one can easily reverse this so that the levetta opens the brew path valve before engaging the pump. My setup allows for different types of operations. Either you can just flick the levetta right up and work with the natural preinfusion from the E-61 group. But you can also start by raising it to the middle position. In this position the water will start to trickle out without the pump being engaged. This happens as the HX is naturally slightly pressurised. You are right, of course, that you won't be able to get more than a few ounces of water out before the pressure is equalised and then you have to turn on the brew switch. yet, this is exactly what I sometimes want for a slow and certain pre-wetting of the puck. I have also been experimenting with briefly flicking the levetta all the way up, just engaging the pump for a second or two but not enough for the brew pressure manometer to start rising, then return to the middle position for a slightly longer preinfusion and then raising it again for pressure to start building. The idea of this type of operation is to introduce a little more water from the pump into the hx loop as to replace the water running out when opening the brew path. The word is still out though as to whether I'd recommend this type of operation. When doing naked shots I can see a distinct difference though when doing the manual extra pre-infusion as compared to simply raising the levetta all the way up immediately. On the latter, my extraction almost always starts as a ring in the periphery (I know, bad technique, must practice), on the former the extraction always starts equally across the bottom of the basket. On another note, do you really think it's worth replacing the Ma-Ter with the Barksdale? My deadband on the XP700 is so small that I don't see a need for it. It also seems substantially heftier than the ordinary Ma-Ters. Hope you do get the Marte, she is a lovely girl and would be great to continue sharing experiences. Warm regards, Thomas Copyrighted image by Verna Design removed by moderator (Dan)

Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water. ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

gammeltoft
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Roaster: Alpenröst

Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006, 10:46am Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Just a half-year follow-up. Machine is still working fine. I had a single instance of OPV creep, but that was easily adjusted. Also had a chance to open up the machine a few times as a friend was doing some repairs in his Valentina. I can now definetely confirm that the boiler and heating element are also similar to the BFC Valentina. Over the last weeks I have been slightly annoyed that the machine seemed to be running slightly too cool, especially during the first hour of warm up. I opened up the group head to check for scale, especially in the gicleur, but that seemed ok. Then I started suspecting the thermosyphon restrictor. As discussed above this is likely somewhat smaller on this machine as compared to e-61 HX (e.g. the Valentina). I managed to unscrew the brass hex nut just after the right-angle of the heat exchanger on top of the boiler and gently move the tube aside (some force needed of course). The restrictor itself is a small white disc with a hole in it. Right enough, the hole was almost clogged by scale, which would have prevented the thermosyphon from functioning properly. Strangely enough hardly any scale was found in the boiler when I opened it up last, but somehow my descaling must have missed this area. The disc came out easily and after cleaning off the scale and reassembling the machine immediately picked up heat-up times. It still only requires a short flush, which is great. Below is a few pictures of the placement of the thermosyphon and how to get at it. Best Thomas (Click for larger image)

Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water. ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

jim_schulman
Senior Member

Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,772
Location: Chicago
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006, 3:52pm Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Good pics. According to the research I did, scale acumulates in unpredictable spots (it seems to depend on microscopic features to get started, after which it forms preferentialy where some scale already is, so that the early process is disequilibrating). To get at scale in the thermosyphon, you need to let the machine run hot with descaler for several hours, flushing regularly to get new descaling solution into the loop.

Jim Schulman www.coffeecuppers.com

Luca
Moderator

Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006, 6:03pm Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Nice. I've sold my silvia/rocky. The plan is that the buyer picks them up next friday, then I pick up the maver and borrow a friend's mini, just as exams finish! So - finally - we'll get some good comparative detail to see if the Makin Espresso version is as impressive as the stock Marte. The scale issue is interesting and a good heads up. We have very soft water here in Melbourne, but this is a good heads-up. As you already know, Thomas, I have taken a new job, part of which will include selling these and other prosumer machines, so I'll definitely write up a "how to descale" document, as all of the manufacturer's instructions in this regard are utterly woeful. I wonder how people deal with OPV creep in machines that don't have brew pressure gauges? Would they just not be able to tell? I'd love to find a variable thermosyphon valve that I could retrofit into the machine. Thomas, what deadband are you seeing? Is it the same when you steam? Cheers, Luca

General ramblings about coffee: http://www.pourquality.blogspot.com/ Reviews of Australian coffee: http://www.coffeereviewaustralia.com/

gammeltoft
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Roaster: Alpenröst

Posted Sat Nov 11, 2006, 1:53am Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Dear both, Thanks for the info Jim. I have VERY hard water (22-30 dH) here at Frederiksberg (part of Copenhagen), so I have been descaling fairly regularly (I should use bottled water, I know). I was surprised, however, when I opened the top of the group to find that when I ran the pump (from a cold start of the machine), the water seemed to flush the group from the bottom hole of the HX/thermosyphon loop. In all the graphs I've seen, arrows always seem to indicate that water flows from the HX loop on top of the boiler into the group and back out through lower hole down under the boiler. This was before descaling, so it may just have been due to the clogged up restrictor, but is this normal? As to Luca, Congratulations on the purchase!! I hope it will serve you well. I'll be looking forward to sharing experiences as well. I don't know if you have access to thermometry equipment at work, but I do think this machine merits some testing with a Scace or similar device to see how the shorter flush times affect intra-shot stability. As regards OPV creep, you would have to be pretty atuned to pick up a single bar difference by taste alone. And mind you, it's only relevant when making ristrettos. My deadband on the boiler pressurestat is still about 0,13-0,15. The real deadband is slightly less than 0,1, the rest is overshoot. I stil haven't seen this pressostat (Ma-Ter XP700) mentioned anywhere else, but I don't complain. I suppose the deadband may be slightly larger when I steam. When I open the steam valve, the pressure almost immediately drops 0,3-0,5 bar after which the heating element engages. After a few seconds it stabilises at approx 0,9-1,0 bar with both steam valve open and heating element on. I love the idea of an adjustable thermosyphon restrictor valve. But have you ever seen on (besides on the old Faemas)? Best Thomas

Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water. ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

LDT
Senior Member

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Denmark
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: BFC La Valentina electronic
Grinder: Rocky

Posted Sat Nov 11, 2006, 5:59am Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

FWIW: Three weeks ago I wrote a mail to the Maver co. asking for a price on the Marte. I never got an answer, and now I ended up getting a BFC La Valentina Electronic from my local dealer (Risteriet). Which btw I am extremely pleased with. All this talk about enormous cooling flushes did at some point make me uncertain about getting a HX, but really, isn´t it somewhat overhyped? I pull a cup heating blank in the cup anyway first, and I dont find cooling flush worth talking about at all with the Valentina. I am a newbie, but I think I can tell if the water is too hot. Oops, that was a drift of topic. @Gammeltoft: Hilsen fra Frb!

gammeltoft
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Roaster: Alpenröst

Posted Sat Nov 11, 2006, 6:14am Subject: Re: New kid on the block - the Maver Marte E-61 HX (with pictures!)

Hi Lars, Glad you are happy with the Valentina. It is a VERY nice machine and I have been pulling quite a few shots on it as well. Compared to the Marte, the Valentina does seem to require a rather long flush, but probably not longer than most other E-61 HX do. Strange that they never wrote back from the Maver company. Peter, another Dane from Copenhagen that has also posted here, just received a Marte a week ago after contacting the factory. The price remains vary competitive, but they don't seem to get the clue that they need to ´pack the machine better when doing un-palletted shipments. Best Thomas

Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water. ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

showing page 5 of 7

first page | last page

previous page | next page

view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics

Discussions > Espresso > Machines > New kid on the...

updated topics

new posts

new unanswered

faq

Not Logged in: log in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post

Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.

Barista Tools

Large selection of tampers, pitchers, milk frothers and much more!
www.espressozone.com

Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2012 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.530453920364)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS