Razorback Senior Member Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 9 Location: BC Canada Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Alex by Izzo Grinder: Macap Stepless, Doserless Drip: Technivorm KBT 741
Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006, 10:08pm Subject: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
Hello everone,
I'm a total cherry when it comes to espresso machines. We have suffered long enough with our Braun grinder and dribbler. In the kitchen we are designing there is going to be a coffee bar with a plumbed in espresso machine, a MACAP 4 and a new Technivorm KBT 741, which should arrive Monday.
We both love coffee. I'm the espresso lover, she loves a rich cup of coffee. We also both enjoy various coffee drinks with milk and chocolate.
After weeks of research, reviews, and just reading forums, its down to one of these three.
Any info on the reliability of vibro. vs rotory. Vibiemme's power draw? Cup clearance, which is seldom mentioned? Quality of internal workings and components Ease to fill and clean. I will be using it before the kitchen is finished. All in all, any detremental cons and frustrations.
I realize these are all in the same class more or less. It's the "less" that I'd like to hear about.
cafeIKE Senior Member Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 183 Location: Woodland Hills CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Super Grinder: La Cimbali Max Hybrid, Macap... Drip: Press, Presto Scandi Roaster: Dual Pwr Variac Hottop & FR
Posted Sun Dec 17, 2006, 2:37am Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
Rotary is quieter and has a different taste profile due to pressure ramp and less pressure fluctuation.
Other than that, the three are pretty much of a muchness as far as making great espresso. The handle side of the portafilter is the limiting factor with a e61 box of this quality.
The Vibiemme and the Andreja Premium were my two finalists and I went with the Vibiemme after talking to Stefano. He had nothing bad to say about Andreja, but, damn, was he enthusiastic about the Vibiemme.
I liked the control layout, internal arrangement and look of the Vibiemme better and have not been disappointed.
I also have the M4 and it 'mates' perfectly with the Vibiemme, both in appearance and performance.
Posted Sun Dec 17, 2006, 8:02am Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
All he said... ;-)
I went with the Izzo Alex because of the ability to be plumbed in or pourover and back quite easily. That way I can take it with me on trips to family or to outings if I so desire. 5 minutes to changeover counting disconnecting the plumb lines.
Cup clearance on the Alex is dicey with the spouts in place. I took the spout off the single portafilter and all my cups clear just fine that way.
Miss Alex deserves consideration as she is one serious hunk of stainless steel. Search the forums for Alex Izzo, there have been lots of discussion on this machine. Also on home-barista.com.
Posted Sun Dec 17, 2006, 8:48am Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
cafeIKE Said:
Rotary is quieter and has a different taste profile due to pressure ramp and less pressure fluctuation.
Other than that, the three are pretty much of a muchness as far as making great espresso. The handle side of the portafilter is the limiting factor with a e61 box of this quality.
From the vibe vs. rotary tests I've read it was found that there's really no difference in extraction or shot quality between the two. Differences in design are more of a factor with the rotary being easier to adjust than a vibe, drawing less current and being able to run longer without overheating like a vibe.
I said about the same thing about all e61 machines being for the most part all the same espresso extraction wise on another forum and it was pointed out to me that HX lengths, restrictor openings and some other design differences really can make one machine's potential vary from another among e61 HX's. I agree with you, though, that a stock e61 group is a stock e61 group and extracts the same whether it's attacted to one type of machine or another. I guess when you're looking at flushing, temperature stability and other factors besides grouphead design affecting extraction it can be said that differences in overall machine design can be considered.
Razorback Senior Member Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 9 Location: BC Canada Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Alex by Izzo Grinder: Macap Stepless, Doserless Drip: Technivorm KBT 741
Posted Sun Dec 17, 2006, 3:36pm Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
Thanks Ian,
I've heard about the noise from the vib. pump. Is this a constant noise or is it only when dispensing shots? Do you have any issues with the cup clearance? This may be an odd question but pulling 2 for cappucinos at the same time would be less hassle. Also, have they improved the manual. I would probably have the "baby" on a timer to come on at 6:00 am and shut down at around 3pm since we don't usually drink coffee after that. Of course I can see that this may change :)
Razorback Senior Member Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 9 Location: BC Canada Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Alex by Izzo Grinder: Macap Stepless, Doserless Drip: Technivorm KBT 741
Posted Sun Dec 17, 2006, 3:51pm Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
Thanks Lloyd
I like the lower power draw of the Alex over the Vibiemme also rotory feature. Maybe I'm having trouble visualizing this but can I pull a shot into 2 cappucino cups at the same time? Not being able to actually see a machine locally I appreciate your info.
Razorback Senior Member Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 9 Location: BC Canada Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Alex by Izzo Grinder: Macap Stepless, Doserless Drip: Technivorm KBT 741
Posted Sun Dec 17, 2006, 4:13pm Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
I'm too new to this to fully appreciate the intricate mechanical nuances that would put one machine over another. I just want great espresso and the ability to indulge the wifes passion for other coffee drinks. All have a learning curve and all, I think, are in the same class. I genuinely feel that I can't go wrong with any but I'm leaning towards the Alex.
By the way, noticed you're in Toronto. I'm in BC about an hour from the border. I mainly purchase in the states and have items sent to a recieving business just across the line then go down and pick the items up and pay the duty. I have had nothing but bad experiences with shippers here in Canada nevermind the outragous cost. The dealers in the US (Chris, Stefano, 1st Line) seem to go above and beyond in looking after the customer long after the $$$ have changed hands.
Posted Sun Dec 17, 2006, 4:53pm Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
Hey Razorback,
Razorback Said:
By the way, noticed you're in Toronto. I'm in BC about an hour from the border. I mainly purchase in the states and have items sent to a recieving business just across the line then go down and pick the items up and pay the duty. I have had nothing but bad experiences with shippers here in Canada nevermind the outragous cost. The dealers in the US (Chris, Stefano, 1st Line) seem to go above and beyond in looking after the customer long after the $$$ have changed hands.
Yeah, I live in Toronto and I agree with you about the Canadian vendors. I get my green beans from Toronto vendors but I haven't found a Canadian vendor that either carries the equipment I'm interested in or has good prices. I don't order equipment from Canadian vendors but I don't like the hassle of shipping stuff up here from States based vendors even if the selection and prices are much better.
Albany is not too far from Toronto so I went directly to Chris' Coffee to try out machines and pick a set up when I was ready to upgrade. If you want real convenience and probably the best machine for the money the Vetrano is hard to beat. The Alex is a new kid on the block as far as I know and it's getting a lot of attention but as a modified Andreja Premium you can say the Vetrano's been around longer and that gives it a more reliable track record. I think Quickmilll makes a good machine. Too bad you're out west. Chris is very hospitable and with advanced notice he'll set up the machines you're interested in and let you try them out until you're sure and help you decide. Either way, if you order from Chris' the service and support are very good.
cafeIKE Senior Member Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 183 Location: Woodland Hills CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Super Grinder: La Cimbali Max Hybrid, Macap... Drip: Press, Presto Scandi Roaster: Dual Pwr Variac Hottop & FR
Posted Mon Dec 18, 2006, 2:34am Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
Razorback Said:
Thanks Ian,
I've heard about the noise from the vib. pump. Is this a constant noise or is it only when dispensing shots? Do you have any issues with the cup clearance? This may be an odd question but pulling 2 for cappucinos at the same time would be less hassle. Also, have they improved the manual. I would probably have the "baby" on a timer to come on at 6:00 am and shut down at around 3pm since we don't usually drink coffee after that. Of course I can see that this may change :)
Pump only runs during a shot and is reasonable. It is well isolated.
Works great on a timer. Just make sure the reservoir is not close to 'empty' or the machine may not start.
If I didn't have granite counter tops and got the machine before the remodel, I'd probably have opted for a plumbed in rotary. There's no way today I'm going to drill the granite and add additional plumbing as it would require a huge tearout. The missus loves her cappas, but not that much.
ALWAYS filll the water level before a dinner party ;-) if you opt for a pourover.
Posted Mon Dec 18, 2006, 7:15am Subject: Re: Alex, Andreja or Vibiemme
Razorback Said:
Thanks Lloyd
I like the lower power draw of the Alex over the Vibiemme also rotory feature. Maybe I'm having trouble visualizing this but can I pull a shot into 2 cappucino cups at the same time? Not being able to actually see a machine locally I appreciate your info.
It depends on the height of the cap cups. My larger cap cup has to be tilted under the spouts, while my smaller one does not. The smaller one is 6 oz and the bigger is 8 oz. Measure the height of your cap cups and compare to the height between top of drip tray to bottom of spout. The clearance on the Alex is 2 1/2", so if your cup is lower it will clear, if higher you would have to tip in into place. But that really isn't that big an issue as each cup will only have a little in it from the espresso pour.
That said, when I do 2 caps for me and a friend, I pour into shot glasses then pour into the cup. Just habit, but it works.
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