Posted Thu Jun 27, 2002, 4:02am Subject: Livia vs E61 machines
I know there are some folks that have owned a Livia and have upgraded to an E61 type machine(Millenium,Tea,Giotto etc) and I was wondering if one of you could tell me how the experiences with machines compares? I may be looking over the next month or 2 to upgrade from Silvia (I do have a good home lined up for her) and have been fixating on these groups of machines.
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Jun 27, 2002, 6:31pm Subject: Re: Livia vs E61 machines
I'm not one of the people who've switched, so I've avoided replying. But since nobody's biting, and I've had some email contacts with a few switchers, I'll venture a reply.
Bear in mind that Mark owns a Livia and has a few E61s in for assessment, so you'll soon have more than hearsay to go on.
I don't think temperature stability and shot quality are an issue, but I think ease of use may be. Judging by the emails, my own experience with the Isomac Tea and people's reports of getting up to speed with the Livia, I have the feeling that the E61s are more fault tolerant. In particular:
I had no difficulty getting great shots with a Mulino grinder and an undersized tamper, whereas Livia owners reported difficulties. I get better coffee flavors with my new Innova, but the espresso basics of crema, body and sweetness flowed out of the E61 at shot times of 18 to 35 seconds. I believe this is due to the very long pre-infusion time (5 seconds) conditioning the puck.
It's almost impossible to badly mess up on shot temperature. I've had the boiler at every level from 0.9 to 1.4 bar. As long as one runs water till it stops steaming, one gets 90 to 95C shot temperatures time after time. Like all HX machines, it takes practice to get it narrowed down from there, but it'll be in the right ballpark even for a brand new owner. I believe this is due to the head's weight - it makes temperature control a breeze.
The Feinschmecker test rated the E61 Giotto higher than the Bezzera version of the Livia. But I wouldn't be very surprised if Mark found that the Livia can manage a slightly better job at its best than the E61s, since the big mass and preinfusion could actually detract from the ultra-finest level of possible control.
MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 5,415 Location: Vancouver, BC Expertise: Professional
Espresso: KvdW Speedster Grinder: Compak K10 WBC Vac Pot: A bit too many Drip: Clive Coffee Drip Stand Roaster: Hario Glass Retro Roaster
Posted Thu Jun 27, 2002, 8:33pm Subject: Re: Livia vs E61 machines
I guess I should post an update on the status of Isomac machines making their way to me.
Because of a severe communication problem (language), I did not get the Isomac Millenium and Zaffiro I was supposed to pick up at the Tea and Coffee Expo in Vancouver last month.
I'm still waiting for the machines. I think Chris is still trying to convince the Isomac guy to ship them to me.
In the meantime, I may be getting some of the "lower" end Isomacs (non E61 models) and these are in a container ship right now, crossing the ocean.
I still think I will be getting the two Isomac E61 machines, the Millenium and Zaffiro (the latter is notable for being a single boiler machine, but with the E61), but right now, I don't know when they will arrive.
Posted Fri Jun 28, 2002, 3:08pm Subject: Re: Livia vs E61 machines
CoffeeKid Said:
I guess I should post an update on the status of Isomac machines making their way to me.
Because of a severe communication problem (language), I did not get the Isomac Millenium and Zaffiro I was supposed to pick up at the Tea and Coffee Expo in Vancouver last month.
I'm still waiting for the machines. I think Chris is still trying to convince the Isomac guy to ship them to me.
In the meantime, I may be getting some of the "lower" end Isomacs (non E61 models) and these are in a container ship right now, crossing the ocean.
I still think I will be getting the two Isomac E61 machines, the Millenium and Zaffiro (the latter is notable for being a single boiler machine, but with the E61), but right now, I don't know when they will arrive.
I'm in the same boat. I've owned Silvia for 13 months now,(can't believe I'm going to say this..but),I am seriously looking at the Isomac Millenium. I love that E61 grouphead & the pre infusion lever!! Maybe I'll just PID Silvia instead...hmmm
Posted Sat Jun 29, 2002, 4:50pm Subject: Re: Livia vs E61 machines
I can hardly wait for Mark to put the machines through their paces & the detailed reviews that will follow. Mark you said you're getting the Isomac Millenium & the Zaffino. Are you(will you)get a Tea also? (wishful thinking on my part!)
Is it me or doesn't the Tea look like a better value than the Millenium?
Aethetics aside (I actually prefer the Tea, but see how some might prefer the Millenium), the Tea appears to have all the same features and ADDS another pressure gauge for the pump. More information can never be a bad thing.
Is it me or doesn't the Tea look like a better value than the Millenium?
Aethetics aside (I actually prefer the Tea, but see how some might prefer the Millenium), the Tea appears to have all the same features and ADDS another pressure gauge for the pump. More information can never be a bad thing.
The Millenium is a newer model. The Tea is not set up for plumbing-in, it's missing holes for the piping. I think, but I'm not sure, that there is a plumb in option for the Millenium.
I dunno about a plumbed in option, but I can tell you a lot of the Millennium's extra bucks is in the outer skin and frame design. That huge, thick chunk of polished and curved steel costs a mint to create in the relatively short runs (50 units a time) the upper end Isomacs go through.
I was told that the outer skin for the Livia, polished, mirror steel, runs about $100 a unit just to make. That gives you an idea of the cost.
I'll know more in a few weeks. Chris has put a Millennium in the mail to me for review on the website sometime down the road.
I haven't called Chris Coffee or anyone else who sells them yet to discuss them, but near as I have been able to learn so far from reviews etc., the Tea has an extra gauge and the Millenium extra looks (again, subjective). Surely there's more difference?
another_jim Said:
The Millenium is a newer model. The Tea is not set up for plumbing-in, it's missing holes for the piping. I think, but I'm not sure, that there is a plumb in option for the Millenium.
I was under the impression from the consumer reviews that Tea was also able to be plumbed in. Not so?
I'm likely to select one of these E61 ~$1k level machines before the end of the year, so I've been reading a lot to learn the difference.
If the main difference is that the Millenium is newer and has higher production costs, but similar features the choice is easy. The plumbing would be nice, but not required. :-)
I'm wondering how they compare to the WEGA Lyra and Livia 90 though.
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