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E61 Purchase Time
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Jewldee
Senior Member


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 41
Location: Indiana
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Pasquini Livia Semi-Auto
Grinder: Pasquini Mocha
Vac Pot: Yes
Drip: Yes
Roaster: Yes
Posted Wed Jan 21, 2004, 5:42am
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

Make sure the e61 has the pre-infusion chamber on the bottom (blah, blah, blah . . .)

The solenoid would be on the right and the chamber on the bottom.  I like the manual heads, personally, as they are old school.

E61's come with and w/out, so ask.

Michael

Could you please explain this for me?  I have been reading about the E61 for some time.  So they come with the pre-infusion chamber in different arrangements?  And what do you mean by manual heads, non E61?
I have a Livia and am quite happy with it, though not very good at consistent.  Perhaps an E61 machine would change this for me?  Would it be worth the expense?
What really are the salient points of significance between the E61 and non E61 machines?
Sorry for the pre-school questions, and thanks in advance for your patient reply!
Julie Dee
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HB
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Wed Jan 21, 2004, 6:25am
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

Jewldee Said:

I have been reading about the E61 for some time.

Posted January 21, 2004 link

There was a good article called the "E61 Tutorial" on Caffè Solo's website.  Regrettably it didn't make the revamp but I did snag this graphic that shows the relationship of the E61 thermosyphon, its expansion chamber, and the heat exchanger.  Can someone point me to a better (or larger) drawing?  That would make it a lot easier to explain.  :-)

-- Dan

HB: e61.jpg

 
www.home-barista.com
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jim_schulman
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jim_schulman
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,772
Location: Chicago
Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Wed Jan 21, 2004, 2:23pm
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

dan_kehn Said:

There was a good article called the "E61 Tutorial" on Caffè Solo's website.  Regrettably it didn't make the revamp but I did snag this graphic that shows the relationship of the E61 thermosyphon, its expansion chamber, and the heat exchanger.  Can someone point me to a better (or larger) drawing?  That would make it a lot easier to explain.  :-)

-- Dan

Posted January 21, 2004 link

The drawing was "borrowed" from ECM, click on thermosyphon to get the original. BTW, the group is not really correct in it's detail. I've appended the patent drawing below; which shows that pistons are really for valving the water flow. The preinfusion effect doesn't seem to be from the pistons, but from the gicleur and receiving chamber.

jim_schulman: e61 patent drawing.JPG
(Click for larger image)

 
Jim Schulman
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Jewldee
Senior Member


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 41
Location: Indiana
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Pasquini Livia Semi-Auto
Grinder: Pasquini Mocha
Vac Pot: Yes
Drip: Yes
Roaster: Yes
Posted Thu Jan 22, 2004, 5:24am
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

Thanks for the drawings.  Which is the expansion chamber, piston, and gicleur?  What exactly do each of these components do, and in the end, is pre-infusion really the only significant difference between an E61 and non E61 (all other things being equal)?  I am just trying to understand the mechanics of the process here, and unfortunately I do not have a high mechanical aptitude. :(
Thanks,
Julie Dee
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HB
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Thu Jan 22, 2004, 6:36am
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

Jewldee Said:

Which is the expansion chamber, piston, and gicleur?

Posted January 22, 2004 link

Valentina was looking pret-ty nervous this morning.  She noticed me eyeballing my set of metric wrenches.  Fortunately, I don't have one large enough for the job, so she stays in one piece.  For now.  ;-)

The patent drawing and the ECM artist rendition show the important stuff.  I'll speculate that the gicleur is #2, the expansion chamber is #9, and the "piston" is #7.  The large cavity #3 is where boiler water circulates to heat the group.  The cam #6 directs water flow by controlling valves #16 and #7 (it is downward in the drawing, allowing water to evacuate through the bottom).  Corrections are welcome (or better yet, a translated copy of the patent itself).

The gicleur is nothing more than a small hole that reduces the water debit from the pump.  The expansion chamber's purpose it so allow pressure to ramp up more slowly, giving the puck a chance to expand before getting hit with the full 9 bars.  Vibratory pumps already have that characteristic (and I've heard it referred to as "progressive preinfusion"), so there is debate about the necessity of the E61's preinfusion design.

The undisputed E61 claim to fame is its thermal mass.  That is a lot of brass which equates to temperature stability during the shot.  The weight of the group becomes especially important in an HX system, since the grouphead "tunes" the final temperature to target by virtue of its thermal mass.  To put it another way, if two ounces of water is an egg temperature-wise, then you want the group to be a bowling ball.  :-)

-- Dan

 
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Michael_Teahan
Senior Member
Michael_Teahan
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 137
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: Professional

Vac Pot: Vintage for collecting only
Roaster: None
Posted Thu Jan 22, 2004, 1:40pm
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

The manual E61 has the lever on the side and no solenoid.

The expansion chamber lies below the group (detailed quite nicely above).

Some companies replace the infusion chamber with a solenoid and put a cover on it, might lead you to believe it's there when it isn't.

Vibration pumps do build pressure more slowly, but only due to the volume they move.  While allowing the pressure to build more slowly than rotaries, they don't replace the pre-infusion chamber as it also bleeds off some of the higher temp water in the initial infusion.

The mass is a key point, but so is the vertical placement of the inlet and outlet pipes.  Increase flow efficiency over later designs that were horizontal to reduce size and weight.

These groups are spendy and they cost a lot to polish.

Manual groups without preinfusion can work okay if they are plumbed through a pressure reducer.  Like the early Marzocco's you can engage the water flow without engaging the pump.

Michael
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Chazmati
Senior Member
Chazmati
Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 28
Location: Neenah, WI
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Tea
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Drip: Krups
Posted Fri Jan 23, 2004, 10:47am
Subject: Isomac Tea
 

espressoDOM Said:

so I wanted to see what people were buying these days.... SINCE say SEPTEMBER if you have spent over 800 bucks for a ESPRESSO machine... what did you buy and if you had to pick 1 or 2 reasons.... SAY WHY....

Posted January 20, 2004 link

Hey Dom,

Add me to the list of new Isomac Tea owners.  I ordered a Tea from Chris' Coffee on Wednesday.  It shipped yesterday and should arrive on Monday.  That gives me the weekend to make my kitchen alterations...

Anyway, for E61 machines at this price level, I chose the Tea because:
  1.  It is highly lauded in many reviews by fellow CoffeeGeeks.   With so many owners on CoffeeGeek I expect plenty of support and camaraderie.  
  2.  I like the idea of a grouphead pressure gauge, seems like it will help refine my routine.
  3.  The reputation of Chris' Coffee seems unbelievable.  I know there was one recent blemish (JimG's review) but the overall comments led me to buy from Chris.
  4.  I like the looks of the machine (although the ECM Giotto is rather pretty also).
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Jewldee
Senior Member


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 41
Location: Indiana
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Pasquini Livia Semi-Auto
Grinder: Pasquini Mocha
Vac Pot: Yes
Drip: Yes
Roaster: Yes
Posted Fri Jan 23, 2004, 5:15pm
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

Dan and Michael,
Thanks for your patient explanations.  I am finding this thread very informative.  
Wishing I knew even more about the mechanics of espresso machines.  Just for fun.
But in the end, I guess it probably does boil down to the "person" being more of
a factor in the final cup than the machine.  I like practicing, and the Livia makes a
very good cup of espresso when I'm having a very good day!
Julie Dee
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M_bob
Senior Member
M_bob
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Seoul, Korea
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Techno, Napoletana II
Grinder: Mini-E, Lux (stepless)
Vac Pot: Nicro
Drip: Chemex, Hario Microp...
Roaster: HWG, HWP, Alp, wb, stovetop
Posted Sat Jan 24, 2004, 3:24am
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

In the e61 group construction described in that patent (Valente,  US Pat. 3,230,974) , the pre-infusion is provided by virtue of operation of the valve (7).

When lever (15) operating the cam (6) is lifted and thereby the lobe of cam 6 lifts stem (16) of the dispensing valve (5), the dispensing valve 5 is in turn lifted off its seat against the force of the spring (18), permitting water under pressure to flow from the chamber (3) through the gicleur (2)  and the valve chamber (20) and into the chamber (14) which communicates with the group via a conduit (4).

So water begins to flow into the chamber 14 and, as the chamber 14 becomes filled, water flows up conduit 4 and via the communicating conduit down to the group.

At this time, the pre-infusion valve 7 is closed (as is also the vent valve (10)), because the stem (22) of the preinfusion valve is no longer being operated (pressed down) by the cam (which at this time is instead lifting the dispensing valve 5).  So, once the group is filled with water and there is no place for the water to go, the water pressure applied to the group (the pressure within chamber 14) begins to rise.

But the spring (8) which presses the pre-infusion valve 7 closed against its seat is rated to allow the pre-infusion valve to open when the pressure inside the chamber 14  (the pressure acting against the valve 7 from above) reaches 1.5 atm, whereupon water from chamber 14 flows into and fills the chamber (9) below the chamber 14.  The spring (19) which holds the vent valve 10 closed is rated not to open the vent valve until the pressure in chamber 9 rises much higher, so the vent valve 10 remains closed as the pressure builds in the chamber 9.

The effect of pre-infusion valve 7 opening is to dampen or "absorb" the initial pressure rise of the water flowing to the group, by diverting flow from chamber 14 into chamber 9. As the pressure in the group supply chamber 14 reaches 1.5 atm, and pre-infusion valve 7 opens, water is diverted into the now-opened chamber 9, which reduces the group supply pressure temporarily, effectively counteracting or at least slowing the rise in pressure for a time until the chamber 9 becomes filled and the pressure then continues to rise.

In this way, the water pressure supplied to the group rises slowly at first, by delaying the onset of when higher pressure is applied.

The vent valve 10 was intended not to open under extraction pressure unless the pressure rose too high (blocked group). With the cam in the position shown in the patent drawing, it presses down on the stem of the pre-infusion valve to open the pre-infusion valve all the way so that in turn the pre-infusion valve presses down on the stem of the vent valve to open the vent valve and thereby vent the group.

Btw, Valente also described a pump overpressure bypass valve in another patent (US Pat.  3,119,322) directed to the arrangement by which operation of the group lever also actuates a switch to operate the pump.
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Riprazor
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 138
Location: North Oaks, MN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Tea, LaSpaziale S1,...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini x 2
Drip: only when wet
Roaster: I-Roast
Posted Sat Jan 24, 2004, 8:27am
Subject: Re: E61 Purchase Time
 

Add me to the Tea list, purchased two weeks ago from Chris.  Reasons:

  1. My wife bought me a Starbucks Barista for Xmas.  As everyone in the forums said I would, I decided I wanted the real thing and am a freak for quality.

  2. Reviews on this site almost universally gave the Tea the highest marks.

  3. It looked very cool!

I couldn't be more happy with the machine.  It took a little adjustment of the grind to get the shot timing and pressure to the perfect point, however, my wife was happy to use the less than optimal grind in her drip machine (yuck). Getting the gasket and group head screen out was a bit of a challenge (for cleaning), but not what I would call problematic.

Good luck,
Barry
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