and I removed the "guts" just fine. But when I pulled a shot this morning, my filter basket still doesn't drain...so there's a little bit of water floating on the top and the grounds are soupy & not puck-like.
I was hoping after removing all the hardware that it would drain like my Gaggia did. Anyone else have this problem, or a suggestion of how to get the portafilter to drain better?
BTW, I am using a Starbucks Barista grinder that I modded (I think 2 steps...but I'll have to look again). I know it's not all that great, but it's all the wife will allow me to spend. The coffee is Starbucks espresso roast. I'm going to try tomorrow with some illy that I have (the lighter roast seems to do better with my grinder than the darker ones).
Posted Wed Jan 30, 2008, 12:25pm Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
J,
Welcome to CG!
Did you also remove the plastic disc that sits at the bottom of the portafilter? If not, try that....It just pops out.
If you have done that, perhaps your grind is too fine, OR the Baristas have been known to 'dribble' a bit - so it may be dripping some water onto the grounds after brewing. How long after the shot are you checking the puck?
I have achieved dry pucks with this machine, si I know it's possible...
blacktalon Senior Member Joined: 2 Jan 2006 Posts: 11 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Saeco Via Venezia Grinder: Starbucks Barista
Posted Wed Jan 30, 2008, 1:28pm Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
Hi Matt!
Thanks for the response. I did remove the plastic disc, which I thought would promote better drainage, but obviously didn't. I usually pull a shot & watch a TV show, leaving the portafilter on the machine while the show is on, and then clean up later. So it was sitting there for a good 45 minutes.
I'll mess with the grind a bit and see what happens. I thought maybe it's too fine, but the shot time this morning was about 20sec, so I'm not quite in the "golden" zone. I'd guess that if I back it off the shot will take less time. I'll try tomorrow and see what happens.
blacktalon Senior Member Joined: 2 Jan 2006 Posts: 11 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Saeco Via Venezia Grinder: Starbucks Barista
Posted Thu Feb 7, 2008, 1:01pm Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
Ok, so I tried a couple of things:
- Used illy whole bean, at the same grind settings: still get a muddy puck - Used illy whole bean, loosened up the grind one stop: weak, thin espresso in about 10-12 seconds, still get a muddy puck - Used *$ espresso roast, loosened up the grind one stop: weak, thin (but darker) espresso in about 10-12 seconds, still get a muddy puck.
I'm wondering if the holes in the filter basket are just too small. I haven't done a side-by-side comparison, but they seem smaller than the Gaggia filter basket.
And BTW, I have the new Via Venezia (with the silver push buttons), not the *$ Barista.
cafewest_tech Senior Member Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 262 Location: Medford Expertise: Professional
Posted Thu Feb 7, 2008, 9:14pm Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
Hi Guys Sorry, it won't drain if you have the correct grind for a couple of days. You need a 3 way valve to get the puck dry and then it needs to have enough coffee in the basket or it will puddle. Jerry
escorpiro Senior Member Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 23 Location: East Coast USA Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Thu Feb 7, 2008, 10:08pm Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
Hi. I've got the SAECO Via Venezia, too, so I'm interested in all the threads about modding the portafilter. I have no real complaints with the Via. My extraction time is 15 seconds no matter what the grind or tamp, but my shots look and taste great.
After the shot is poured, I take off the pf right away. My grinds are generally like squishy mud, and I just spoon them into the garbage disposal. If I leave the pf in the sink for about 20 minutes or more, the grounds will harden up enough to be knocked out. Jason, I'm curious: do you just want a firm "puck" because that is what you think you should have, or will it make a difference to the extraction? I ask, because I am not sure about this myself.
I've just started working for a local roaster, and they have a small cafe. A couple days ago, I went in to take notes about the roasting, and naturally I was offered my choice of beverage so I ordered a double espresso. Without going into it too much, let's just say I pull better shots with my Via. That's how I feel just about everywhere I go - I'm getting better results with my little entry level machine than they are with their commercial machines, and it's all down to technique - I'm sure of it. So, that's why I ask about the firm puck. Are you satisfied with the way your espresso tastes, and does it compare favorably with what you can get out, in a cafe or restaurant?
You said your extraction time is now up to 20 seconds, which would be great for me. I'd really like to have that. Are your shots tasting better now that you've removed the crema enhancer?
Jason wrote:
And BTW, I have the new Via Venezia (with the silver push buttons), not the *$ Barista.
I'm sure we have the same machine; I've pictured it below, for the thread.
Jerry wrote:
You need a 3 way valve to get the puck dry and then it needs to have enough coffee in the basket or it will puddle.
I don't know what the 3 way valve is. Will you explain it, please? Thanks!
blacktalon Senior Member Joined: 2 Jan 2006 Posts: 11 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Saeco Via Venezia Grinder: Starbucks Barista
Posted Fri Feb 8, 2008, 6:53am Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
Hi Deb!
Thanks for the response. Yes, I have the same machine you do.
I didn't get fully into the whole story above, but just for reference, I had a Gaggia Carezza that I have been using for about 2-3 years, so that's been my basis of comparison. Unfortunately, my Gaggia has given up the ghost for the second time, and I decided to change up instead of repairing it again.
My Barista grinder is not the best in the world, I know that, but it's sufficient for the purpose at the moment. With the Carezza, I would get pulls in about 20 seconds with thin but serviceable crema. I know it's not nirvana, but it's good enough for what I spent.
When I first got the Venezia, I tried it with the pressurized portafilter and of course, it worked just like it was supposed to...but as you noticed, it does pulls in about 10-15 seconds regardless of whether I tamped, tamped gently, or just left the grinds lying in the basket, and while the crema was a pretty color, it's not the same as what you get with a proper extraction. I got a free half pound of beans from *$ when I bought the machine, so I was using that for experimentation. Not my favorite blend (I'm an illy guy), so I was willing to accept some differences until I got it dialed in. Anyway, long story short, with the pressurized portafilter, the espresso was rich and flavorful, but a little bit bitter...not like what I was getting with the Gaggia.
I then decided to experiment with the portafilter, and I first removed the spring, but left the rest of the mechanism in place. Immediate difference in flavor and crema; shots take about 20-22 seconds. Much smoother (even with the espresso roast) and less bitter. The only downside (IMHO) was the muddy puck. The Gaggia didn't do that.
So I figured the tiny little hole in the plastic at the bottom of the portafilter was inhibiting proper drainage, so I removed the rest of the pressurizing mechanism (it really is as easy as the thread above suggests...just scary to be hacking on your brand new machine). Same results as before removing the mechanism. So that's when I started the thread. (BTW, the take-away here is that unless you just want to remove all of the mechanism, (which makes it easier to keep the thing clean) you don't have to--it didn't make a detectable difference in taste to me.)
As you mentioned, there's nothing in the flavor that makes me think that a dry puck would be better. I'm pretty happy with the flavor. I was just wondering if there was something I could do to get it to drain better & make cleanup easier. If not, I'm not losing any sleep.
A couple of improvements, for those that might be curious, over the Gaggia: the water reservoir is much bigger (very nice), the drip tray has much more volume, and overall, the machine is much quieter.
escorpiro Senior Member Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 23 Location: East Coast USA Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri Feb 8, 2008, 9:30pm Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
Jason, thanks for the detailed answer. It really helps because I'm interested to know how exactly the removal of the ppf mechanism affects the shots. Sometimes when I'm expressing the 5 oz. of water through the empty portafilter to heat it up, the water comes out a very pale brown, just slightly tinged, but I know it means there are old grounds trapped in the mechanism, behind the disk-and-gasket arrangement. It's not my grouphead, because I'm meticulous about cleaning the group - I wipe off the screen each time, I use the scraper and remove the showerhead, as described in the manual, and every few shots I use a stiff nylon bristle brush to clean up there in the channels. I know it's not the grouphead; I'm certain it's in the portafilter itself, and I'm sure some of this brownish water is getting into the final shot. This alone, makes me want to do the mod but, as you say, it's kind of scary to hack into a new machine. It might be better to give it a chance to perform the way the manufacturer meant it to. However, when you say:
... it really is as easy as the thread above suggests...
it makes me want to get out the screwdriver, already, and just do it!
I get the idea that, for you, the main problem with the wet puck is that it's messy. Do you mean it shoots out from the group when you take the pf off, and gets all over the drip tray? Mine did this once or twice, on the occasions that I didn't tamp. I know the directions don't mention tamping, and with the ppf you don't need to do it, supposedly, but I always tamped, regardless. I just thought I should. On the couple of occasions when I didn't, there was kind of a mess. I assume you tamp all the time, since you've removed the pressurized mechanism.
I don't know how you can get the pf to drain better, but I have a few ideas for the wet grounds. Simplest: just spoon them into the garbage disposal. It takes a fraction of a second to do it - much quicker than knocking them out. (I know, because my old steam boiler produced a very flat, hard cylinder that took a few good knocks to dislodge.) Another thing you can do is collect them in a container to spread around the acid-loving plants outdoors, such as azaleas, if you have any, or add them to the compost heap. If you don’t have a disposal unit or simply can’t put wet grounds in your trash, then spread them out on a paper towel or old newspaper and let them air dry, or dump them in a container where they can dry out.
Another thing you can try is, instead of pulling a shot and leaving the pf in place, take it off and let it sit in the sink until you can get to it. As I mentioned above, they do harden up pretty good when they sit for a while.
What I'm wondering is - you mentioned you think the holes in the filter basket seem small. Have you tried using a different filter basket, yet? How did that work? I'm not that bothered with the wet grounds I have now, but I wouldn't want it to get worse once I mod the pf.
wideasleep1 Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 581 Location: Sausalito,Ca Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: VBMDoubleDomo Grinder: Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: nope Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: IR1 and 2,SC/TO,Behmor
Posted Sat Feb 9, 2008, 12:50am Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
Cafewest-tech is correct..there is no pressure relief (3-way solenoid/valve) on the Barista/ViaVeneto, so you will continue to get sloshy mud most of the time, only occasionally a dryish puck (likely a too coarse grind). You'll still need to scoop out the muck with the flat end of the provided scoop, or whatever does the job better. Deb, (you aren't from FW, are you? ;) ) you need a better grinder. I *think* you already know this, if you indeed have the Carezza on the way, and if this is the case, it may be worthwhile to hold off on PPF mods until the new grinder arrives. I believe with proper grind, you can use the stock PPF and get 25-30 seconds extractions from Veneto. Do this for a while to learn what the machine can do stock, then advance to modding the PPF->PF and learn proper tamp. Everything you learn on Veneto will be applicable to Carrezza, and with your acquired skills, you will see better service from the Carezza due to heavy brass components and better quality construction vs. Veneto. I still keep my Barista around, despite the fact I rarely use it...Sylvia rules the coffee bar presently. :)
edit: The better grinder applies to you, too, Jason. ;) Now you have a great excuse to go shopping, and don't skimp...the grinder dictates success as much as the machine...some argue moreso. :)
Posted Sat Feb 9, 2008, 4:12am Subject: Re: Saeco Via Venezia/Starbucks Barista portafilter question
I was wondering if I needed a new portafilter for my Barista, the plastic pin(crema enhancer?) has disintegrated and I'm just not getting the crema I'm used to, and it takes a while for it to drain after pulling a shot. I spoke with the tech that had replaced the pump and he suggested it could be my grind, so I'm working on that. But if I remove the guts of the PF will that have any effect? He suggested soaking it in water and baking soda and not to take it apart. It just doesn't seem to have the "pop" it once had. I'm using a stock Barista burr grinder with homeroast beans.
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