pbparker Senior Member Joined: 25 Apr 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Minneapolis Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Posted Mon Apr 28, 2008, 7:47am Subject: Big mistake if I go Super Automatic versus Silvia?
Okay, here's my deal. I normally drink iced Latte's (I know, I'll be killed by the purists). I do so because I get overly hot if I drink hot drinks - especially in the summer. I normally have a triple shot. Occassionally I'll have guests over and they'll want true cappuccino/espresso drinks.
So... initially I was looking to buy the Rancilio Silvia/Rocky combo. Then after reading the forum, I read how some people have trouble getting a consistent shot - or dislike the work/cleanup of a manual process.
Then I saw at Costco the Saeco Incanto Deluxe for $799 and read the reviews that indicate while it's not as good as a good Silvia produced shot, it can produce a consistent shot that latte drinkers wouldn't notice as being subpar (although it appears tough to get a good strong shot from it).
I'm aware there are some who had issues with Saeco's support - so I'd know that going in.
Beyond that.. am I missing anything I should be aware of and does anyone have feedback on my decision before I go one way or the other?
I'd argue that a mediocre shot is noticeable even in a latte. If you compare a mediocre latte with one that contains a wonderful shot of coffee, you'll know what I mean. Especially if you use whole milk, the taste carries through the milk. Therefore, just because one loves lattes, one should not accept average shot quality (and I love lattes too, by the by).
Consistency can be a problem with a small machine like the Silvia, but if you're passionate about coffee and truly like the process of making a shot, then do not go for the super automatic. I'd rather have a set-up that - despite the occasional imbalance - gives me the possibility to create god shots rather than a super-automatic machine that will churn out one shot after another with the same boring taste. It all comes down to your coffee behavior. If you enjoy the process of spending some time with the grinder/portafilter/tamper etc. (which I think is part of the anticipatory home coffee show when entertaining guests), then don't get the Saeco. If you are looking for convenience (nothing wrong with that) and can accept more or less boring uniformity, then get the Saeco. All I know about super autos in this price range is that they usually do not hold up as well as the manual machines as they often start to develop problems with their complicated innards.
Mark08859 Senior Member Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 194 Location: New Jersey Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Pavoni EPC-8, Quickmill... Grinder: Rancilio Rocky Doserless
Posted Mon Apr 28, 2008, 8:23am Subject: Re: Big mistake if I go Super Automatic versus Silvia?
Super-autos are all about convenience. They will give a consistent shot that is on par or better than your local charbuck's. But, it will not match what you can get out of a semi-auto or manual machine once you have developed consistent technique. As long as a person understands this compromise, then go ahead and buy a super-auto. I'd suggest purchasing a digital super-auto as they are easier to use and "talk" to you in English (or several other languages of your choice).
If you want to do better than what you can get out of a local mass market chain or a super-auto, than you might want to go for a semi-auto and grinder combo. The learning curve will be higher but the potential payoff is better. If you are worried about the finicky reputation of the Silvia, look at offerings from Gaggia. Those machines are more forgiving than a Silvia.
I think that statement just about sums it up, with the notes above about the "shot quality" issues.
Yes, Miss Silvia can be a finicky bride but she'll reward you with great shots if you treat and "massage" her right.
I have a Classic / MDF combo, and if I may compare this to other things, compare the Superauto to a plain-Jane car with an automatic transmission, and a good semi-auto or manual machine to a Porsche or a BMW with a nice tight gearbox. Or compare the former to a power boat where you lay the hammer down and get where you wanna go, and the latter to a nice 30' saling sloop, where it takes skill to get it to do what you want it to do.
In all cases, the former will get you where you want to go, but with not nearly as much fun as the latter (and again, the semi-auto coffee set-up will make better coffee).
THBFKAN (The Home Barista Formerly Known As "Newfie") says:
pbparker Senior Member Joined: 25 Apr 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Minneapolis Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Posted Mon Apr 28, 2008, 10:45am Subject: Re: Big mistake if I go Super Automatic versus Silvia?
See... I knew this was what was going to happen. I really like convenience and I'm prepared to give up some quality to get it, but if that's the case then I might as well continue getting the commercial ones.
So... I should get serious and strongly look at the Silvia route and do it right. My only other question would be if I'm used to triple shot drinks - what additional items would I need to purchase for the Silvia to not have to make three shots.
Would I only need the naked portafilter and the triple 21gr basket? Is there a spout with the Silvia that can be used on the new pieces? I'm a novice at this.
Posted Mon Apr 28, 2008, 1:04pm Subject: Re: Big mistake if I go Super Automatic versus Silvia?
I think it would depend on your expectations and interest. A Silvia/Rocky combo is capable of good espresso but you need a good fresh roast, a pretty good hand and some experience with the Silvia. A Silvia with a good grinder is kind of like a small sports car. Great performance if you're good with a manual transmission and know how to drive her. If you're just starting out it takes a bit of time to get good with a Silvia, I found.
A Superautomatic from what I've read is very convenient but the espresso won't be as rich in true crema and deep charactered as what you'd get from a semi automatic machine and a good grinder.
Posted Mon Apr 28, 2008, 1:44pm Subject: Re: Big mistake if I go Super Automatic versus Silvia?
pbparker Said:
My only other question would be if I'm used to triple shot drinks - what additional items would I need to purchase for the Silvia to not have to make three shots.
Would I only need the naked portafilter and the triple 21gr basket? Is there a spout with the Silvia that can be used on the new pieces? I'm a novice at this.
It works great and you can swap the double or triple basket very easily.
I have to agree with the opinion of other CGs here - with fresh beans, and a little practice, Ms. Silvia makes great espresso which is well worth the extra step.
Posted Mon Apr 28, 2008, 2:13pm Subject: Re: Big mistake if I go Super Automatic versus Silvia?
I tossed a $2K Jura (literally tossed) in favor of a Silvia/Rocky and then added a PID later. I still haven't encountered a superauto that I think is particularly good.
Like others have said, naked PF with a triple basket works great.
pbparker Senior Member Joined: 25 Apr 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Minneapolis Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Posted Mon Apr 28, 2008, 2:30pm Subject: Re: Big mistake if I go Super Automatic versus Silvia?
Alright... I was so on the fence to begin with that the comments have already nudged me over the edge in favor of the Silvia. Gonna get that with the naked PF that Marshall mentioned. I've read a couple questionable reviews of the Rocky Doser, but what the heck - it's priced right.
I appreciate all the feedback. Will order tomorrow.
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