Posted Wed Jul 16, 2008, 6:40pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
HX line has a small volume. Your water for espresso will be as fresh as your source whether plumbed in or reservoir. With a double boiler water sits in the dedicated brew boiler unless you flush the boiler regularily. Whether the water goes stale is debateable but the HX water is always fresh from source.
E61 preinfusion. The e61 group was made to be used with an HX. With the e61 lever acutuated group you have the benefit of physical preinfusion as the group chambers fill with water and come to pressure. Preinfusion can be solenoid controlled as well but the old lever actuated is favoured for it's control and simplicity. Double boilers like the Brewtus have an e61 grouphead but the e61, I believe, really is designed for an HX with a thermosyphon loop. A double boiler does better with a more direct connect group since the brew boiler is being held at brew temps. An e61 on a double boiler, I think, has to be fitted too far away and is subject to cooling because it sticks out so far all of which kind of defeat holding the brew boiler at a specific temp. To benefit from double boiler temp stability the group design sacrifices preinfusion which I believe is the case with the Vivaldi II. Now whether preinfusion extracts better espresso is debateable. It does tend to make extraction easier and more forgiving.
Price and choice. HX e61s have been around a while. There are many to choose from. More than double boilers. Their parts are also pretty common and stock. They're less expensive than newer home double boilers but, IMHO, no way lesser machines. HX parts are reasonably priced making them a pretty good value to own/repair.
Pressures stat controlled boilers. I like pressurestats. The dead band on some pressurestats like a Sirai may be wide making them less precise for holding specific boiler temps but there are pressurestats that are very precise. Holding a boiler temp using pressure instead of temperature I think is also very clever.
Simultaneous brewing and steaming. Yes, you get that with a double boiler but with most HX machines having bigger 'steam' boilers than an average home double boiler your steam on an HX should be stronger for longer if that's important to you.
HX flushing offers on the fly temp targeting. After an HX comes to temp everytime it idles for a while the HX line commonly takes on the temp of the boiler. It doesn't take long. Depending on how long or short you flush you can cool down or leave the group and HX line hotter to your preference. Counting is accurate enough, I find. If you want feed back on the temp there's thermocouple/thermometer kits that let you measure the temp inside the brewpath. As well, after flushing you can play with the HX rebound with a flush and go or wait for a bit, either of which changes the brew temp profile. It's hands on but I think that gives you potentially more control if you want to take advantage of it.
Commercial 58mm size. The e61 group stock seems to be 58mm. A pretty common size. It's convenient for baskets and tampers. You don't have to buy new sets of anything going from one HX to another. That's not necessarily so for double boilers whose groups can vary in size.
A few draw backs to HXs apart from not having a brew boiler set to a specific temp is descaling and water consumption. Descaling an HX isn't hard but it's a bit tricky since the HX line and boiler need to be seperately dealt with. You do flush more with and HX as well which means more filling if your machine has a reservoir. Plumb ins are definitely more convenient for HXs.
As well, even as simple as HX flushing is, it's not for everyone. A double boiler is simpler as a set it and kind of forget it machine. Even a double boiler, from what I read, needs a flush but not for cooling but warming depending on the group design. Some double boilers with groups that stick out can get cold noses as they idle.
Double boilers are kind of new and relect the idea that targeting and holding brew temps makes for better espresso. I don't agree but unfortunately I think it creates a bias against HX machines. Add to that the idea that flushing is difficult or tedious and HXs start to get slammed. That's a shame.
I used to have a stock Silvia so I know what temp surfing is about. It wasn't really hard but it was tedious. Flushing an HX is nothing like temp surfing. I find it's intuitive and easy, not at all complicated or tedious.
It's up to you. If you want something simpler than an HX a double boiler is a good choice. If you want a double boiler because you think it's a better machine than an HX or that an HX is too difficult to use I wouldn't agree. Lever actuated e61s are very good machines and a great value, IMHO.
amwreck Senior Member Joined: 6 Mar 2006 Posts: 32 Location: Jacksonville Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: MELITTA COMPACT 15 BAR PUMP... Grinder: Capresso Burr Grinder #551 Vac Pot: Bodum Drip: Mr. Coffee Roaster: None
Posted Wed Jul 16, 2008, 7:07pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
Well, I'm not looking for easy. I am looking to become an expert home barista who has complete control over the shot. Everything I can learn, I want to learn. What you said about the parts being readily available when my machine needs parts was good. That is definitely something to take into account.
Thanks for all the great info. I've got a lot to consider, but I'm still leaning towards the Andreja. For one, I love the way it looks. It also has the option of being plumbed in. And finally, I'm not sure there are enough advantages to the Brewtus to make me go in that direction and the other dual boilers are more expensive, so I'm ruling them out. I'm having enough trouble pulling the trigger on the Andreja deal, adding another $100-200 isn't going to make things any easier! :)
wideasleep1 Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 581 Location: Sausalito,Ca Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: VBMDoubleDomo Grinder: Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: nope Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: IR1 and 2,SC/TO,Behmor
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 1:47am Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
For the benefit of others (OP has already ruled out double-boiler based on cost), I'll add/agree/refute some of mrgnomer's points. :)
mrgnomer Said:
HX line has a small volume. Your water for espresso will be as fresh as your source whether plumbed in or reservoir. With a double boiler water sits in the dedicated brew boiler unless you flush the boiler regularily. Whether the water goes stale is debateable but the HX water is always fresh from source.
Coffeegeeks go through water like crazy, hence the demand for plumb-in machines. Warm-flush, cool flush, PF cleaning, making americanos, pre-heating cups...stale water has NEVER been a problem, nor ever crossed my mind. I have to add fresh RO water to my Vibi every morning as it is.
E61 preinfusion. The e61 group was made to be used with an HX. With the e61 lever acutuated group you have the benefit of physical preinfusion as the group chambers fill with water and come to pressure. Preinfusion can be solenoid controlled as well but the old lever actuated is favoured for it's control and simplicity. Double boilers like the Brewtus have an e61 grouphead but the e61, I believe, really is designed for an HX with a thermosyphon loop. A double boiler does better with a more direct connect group since the brew boiler is being held at brew temps. An e61 on a double boiler, I think, has to be fitted too far away and is subject to cooling because it sticks out so far all of which kind of defeat holding the brew boiler at a specific temp. To benefit from double boiler temp stability the group design sacrifices preinfusion which I believe is the case with the Vivaldi II. Now whether preinfusion extracts better espresso is debateable. It does tend to make extraction easier and more forgiving.
No sacrifice of pre-infusion on the DoubleDomo, it's E61 is lever activated, pre-infuses, has thermosyphon loop, and does not seem 'fitted too far away and subject to cooling'..indeed I've found it to be quite stable wrt temps during a pull. I agree the pre-infusion extracts better espresso..pressure builds gently with no blast, and eases the oils rather than flushing the puck.
Price and choice. HX e61s have been around a while. There are many to choose from. More than double boilers. Their parts are also pretty common and stock. They're less expensive than newer home double boilers but, IMHO, no way lesser machines. HX parts are reasonably priced making them a pretty good value to own/repair.
I think this is a wash. 95% of the DoubleDomo's parts are from the Domobar Super, and are just as easy to obtain as any HX.
Pressures stat controlled boilers. I like pressurestats. The dead band on some pressurestats like a Sirai may be wide making them less precise for holding specific boiler temps but there are pressurestats that are very precise. Holding a boiler temp using pressure instead of temperature I think is also very clever.
I still prefer PID control, but I am very impressed with the Pstat control of the steam boiler. Rather than the heavy clunk-click annoying me, it's actually comforting to hear Vibi cycling in the kitchen..reminds me to pull shots! :p The steam recovery is remarkably fast, so I'm very pro-Pstat!
Simultaneous brewing and steaming. Yes, you get that with a double boiler but with most HX machines having bigger 'steam' boilers than an average home double boiler your steam on an HX should be stronger for longer if that's important to you.
I suppose compare the 'steam' boiler sizes btw. a double vs. HX before you buy. I anticipate my new larger boiler, that now is built into current DoubleDomo's. I still don't know what volume the new boiler has/will have, but I think it will compare favorably to the Domobar Super, an HX.
HX flushing offers on the fly temp targeting. After an HX comes to temp everytime it idles for a while the HX line commonly takes on the temp of the boiler. It doesn't take long. Depending on how long or short you flush you can cool down or leave the group and HX line hotter to your preference. Counting is accurate enough, I find. If you want feed back on the temp there's thermocouple/thermometer kits that let you measure the temp inside the brewpath. As well, after flushing you can play with the HX rebound with a flush and go or wait for a bit, either of which changes the brew temp profile. It's hands on but I think that gives you potentially more control if you want to take advantage of it.
The VBM is PID controlled, but flushing will also affect grouphead temps by several degress much like HX, just in the other direction (warm flush). It would take several minutes to cool down more than a few degrees after PID adjustment, but this could be assisted with a long flush until the PID reacts to the incoming water. Coming from Silvia, I prefer a warm flush to a cool one.
Commercial 58mm size. The e61 group stock seems to be 58mm. A pretty common size. It's convenient for baskets and tampers. You don't have to buy new sets of anything going from one HX to another. That's not necessarily so for double boilers whose groups can vary in size.
VBM is 58mm, and was a huge selling point for me, already posessing 58mm gear from Silvia(naked baskets, naked PF's, triple baskets,etc.) IIRC, VBM is the 'father' of the e61 design, and my group appears to be quite a bit larger than the HX copies, at least from the pics I see on the net.
A few draw backs to HXs apart from not having a brew boiler set to a specific temp is descaling and water consumption. Descaling an HX isn't hard but it's a bit tricky since the HX line and boiler need to be seperately dealt with. You do flush more with and HX as well which means more filling if your machine has a reservoir. Plumb ins are definitely more convenient for HXs.
I haven't considered this, mainly because I use RO water..the reservoir weight-activated switch is great in allowing me to use the water I choose. I could benefit from plumb-in, most definitely...so this applies to both machine types.
As well, even as simple as HX flushing is, it's not for everyone. A double boiler is simpler as a set it and kind of forget it machine. Even a double boiler, from what I read, needs a flush but not for cooling but warming depending on the group design. Some double boilers with groups that stick out can get cold noses as they idle.
Don't know about the cold nose, as it's been my habit to flush about 1/2 oz. through the PF(clean), into my cup to pre-warm, so my 'flush' is quick and serves two purposes...three if you think you have a cold nose. I agree with Kirk that the HX cooling flush difficulties are over-stated, but should still be a consideration when choosing btw. a doubleboiler vs. HX. Bear in mind the VBM has thermosyphon, so cold nose should be quite minimal.
Double boilers are kind of new and relect the idea that targeting and holding brew temps makes for better espresso. I don't agree but unfortunately I think it creates a bias against HX machines. Add to that the idea that flushing is difficult or tedious and HXs start to get slammed. That's a shame.
I think double boilers are the future, will become more electrically efficient and palateable (15 amp circuits), and will replace HX tech in many homes as their sales volumes increase accompanied with the price efficiency in volume production.
I used to have a stock Silvia so I know what temp surfing is about. It wasn't really hard but it was tedious. Flushing an HX is nothing like temp surfing. I find it's intuitive and easy, not at all complicated or tedious.
Silvia is the benchmark for tedious neediness! Even learning an HX would be simple in comparison. A PID is not exactly automagic either, and takes some understanding wrt temp offsets,etc. Still the learning curve edge goes to PID DoubleBoiler > HX>and lastly Silvia, which deserves last in any list mentioning 'ease of use' or 'forgiving'. :p
It's up to you. If you want something simpler than an HX a double boiler is a good choice. If you want a double boiler because you think it's a better machine than an HX or that an HX is too difficult to use I wouldn't agree. Lever actuated e61s are very good machines and a great value, IMHO.
Again, the VBMDD is lever actuated. HX vs. Double wrt 'better' is subjective based on the facts of the specific machines being considered...there are great and poor examples in each camp. :)
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 3:55am Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
mrgnomer Said:
Price and choice. HX e61s have been around a while. There are many to choose from. More than double boilers. Their parts are also pretty common and stock. They're less expensive than newer home double boilers but, IMHO, no way lesser machines. HX parts are reasonably priced making them a pretty good value to own/repair.
These are probably the biggest advantages of HX over DB IMO. Like mrgnomer said, there are some other advantages like typically larger steam boilers, adjust on the fly temp control, e61 groups and POTENTIAL advantages like "fresh" water.
wideasleep, I have no hands on experience w/ the VBM, but it is the only comparison you were using; mrgnomer was referring a typical HX to a typical DB (I presume).
amwreck Senior Member Joined: 6 Mar 2006 Posts: 32 Location: Jacksonville Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: MELITTA COMPACT 15 BAR PUMP... Grinder: Capresso Burr Grinder #551 Vac Pot: Bodum Drip: Mr. Coffee Roaster: None
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 8:28am Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
Here's another quick question. I know the Andreja is 15 3/4" tall with the rail. How much clearance do you need to take the top off and fill the reservoir? My cabinets are 17" above the counter tops in the kitchen.
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 8:33am Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
I don't know, no matter how little clearance you might need, only 1.25" is not much room to do it even if you could. You couldn't get a pitcher in there. Maybe a hose, but even so it sounds tight.
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 1:02pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
Joel_B Said:
wideasleep, I have no hands on experience w/ the VBM, but it is the only comparison you were using; mrgnomer was referring a typical HX to a typical DB (I presume).
There's not many prosumer double boilers designed for home use that fit in the same mid range level as prosumer e61 HXs. I don't think there's a typical design for home DBs. The Brewtus, Double Domo, and I imagine what Izzo is coming out with look like e61 HX platforms modified to fit two boilers. PIDs are in as smart thermostats so I can see why the new DBs coming out are using them.
The LaSpaziale Vivaldi II is more of a straight double boiler. No e61 group but that doesn't seem to be a drawback based on what owners are saying. From what I've read a double boiler would benefit from a more direct connect to a dedicated brew boiler. LaMarzocco's and Synesso's saturated groupheads are welded right on to the boiler effectively make them thermally one unit.
wideasleep1 Said:
No sacrifice of pre-infusion on the DoubleDomo, it's E61 is lever activated, pre-infuses, has thermosyphon loop, and does not seem 'fitted too far away and subject to cooling'..indeed I've found it to be quite stable wrt temps during a pull. I agree the pre-infusion extracts better espresso..pressure builds gently with no blast, and eases the oils rather than flushing the puck.
Don't know about the cold nose, as it's been my habit to flush about 1/2 oz. through the PF(clean), into my cup to pre-warm, so my 'flush' is quick and serves two purposes...three if you think you have a cold nose. I agree with Kirk that the HX cooling flush difficulties are over-stated, but should still be a consideration when choosing btw. a doubleboiler vs. HX. Bear in mind the VBM has thermosyphon, so cold nose should be quite minimal.
Again, the VBMDD is lever actuated. HX vs. Double wrt 'better' is subjective based on the facts of the specific machines being considered...there are great and poor examples in each camp. :)
I'm wondering, wideasleep1, what temp have you set for your VBM DoubleDomo? I've read where PID's HXs have to be offset quite a bit not only to get steam but to keep the group from getting too cold. Setting a temp for brewing is too cold. They have to be set higher. I think that's because of the distance of the group from the boiler, how much the group sticks out (makes it prone to cooling) the HX line and the thermosyphon loop all shedding heat.
Keepitsimple Senior Member Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 208 Location: UK Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Reneka Techno Grinder: Mazzer Mini-e
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 1:54pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
amwreck Said:
Here's another quick question. I know the Andreja is 15 3/4" tall with the rail. How much clearance do you need to take the top off and fill the reservoir? My cabinets are 17" above the counter tops in the kitchen.
you could always drill a hole in the bottom of the cabinet and insert a funnel directly above the tank ;o)
(yup seen it done...and you can plug the hole with grommets if you don't need it any more. )
Alternatively, use an external tank (the kind of container they sell for breakfast cereals are quite good, or anything the right shape/size that is food safe) and set up a syphon into the machine's tank. Then use the external tank to refill.
I did that for a while when I had a tanked machine - it has the advantage that you can see the water level too. Only scrapped it when I bought a proper plumbed in machine and did a complete kitchen remodel at the same time - installing high cabinets over the machine and grinder.
Both the above work best if the Andreja has somewhere to get a pipe into the reservoir without removing the top. The Isomac Tea I used to have, had a pre-cut hole in the base which allowed me to put a pipe in very neatly.
With any tanked machine you do need to clean the internal tank very frequently. It's easy to overlook it if you adopt any solution like these. The combination of stagnant water and a gentle bug-growing temperature could get unhealthy otherwise. I'm told that filtered water - especially filters that remove chlorine - can exacerbate this.
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