JVBorella Senior Member Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 488 Location: northeastern CT. Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: LaSpaziale Vivaldi S1V2 Grinder: Mazzer SJ,KA Pro,Zassenhaus... Vac Pot: Press Pots/Finum Filters Drip: No Thanks Roaster: Before Long
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 2:58pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
mrgnomer Said:
E61 preinfusion. The e61 group was made to be used with an HX. With the e61 lever acutuated group you have the benefit of physical preinfusion as the group chambers fill with water and come to pressure. Preinfusion can be solenoid controlled as well but the old lever actuated is favoured for it's control and simplicity. Double boilers like the Brewtus have an e61 grouphead but the e61, I believe, really is designed for an HX with a thermosyphon loop. A double boiler does better with a more direct connect group since the brew boiler is being held at brew temps. An e61 on a double boiler, I think, has to be fitted too far away and is subject to cooling because it sticks out so far all of which kind of defeat holding the brew boiler at a specific temp. To benefit from double boiler temp stability the group design sacrifices preinfusion which I believe is the case with the Vivaldi II. Now whether preinfusion extracts better espresso is debateable. It does tend to make extraction easier and more forgiving.
As of 7/1/08 all Vivaldi S1V2 machines sold by CC come with programmable preinfusion/expanded temp offset & progressive pre infision (similar to the E61) is an option on the Vivaldi Mini V2. The progressive p/i can be added to any Vivaldi out there & owners of S1V2s sold previously can have the board upgraded with the programmable p/i software. This allows you to adjust the preinfusion time from 0-8 seconds & gives you an offset range of -8*C to +8*C. I had my board upgraded a few days ago & am just starting to play with the various p/i options.
amwreck Senior Member Joined: 6 Mar 2006 Posts: 32 Location: Jacksonville Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: MELITTA COMPACT 15 BAR PUMP... Grinder: Capresso Burr Grinder #551 Vac Pot: Bodum Drip: Mr. Coffee Roaster: None
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 4:27pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
Keepitsimple Said:
you could always drill a hole in the bottom of the cabinet and insert a funnel directly above the tank ;o)
(yup seen it done...and you can plug the hole with grommets if you don't need it any more. )
Alternatively, use an external tank (the kind of container they sell for breakfast cereals are quite good, or anything the right shape/size that is food safe) and set up a syphon into the machine's tank. Then use the external tank to refill.
I did that for a while when I had a tanked machine - it has the advantage that you can see the water level too. Only scrapped it when I bought a proper plumbed in machine and did a complete kitchen remodel at the same time - installing high cabinets over the machine and grinder.
Both the above work best if the Andreja has somewhere to get a pipe into the reservoir without removing the top. The Isomac Tea I used to have, had a pre-cut hole in the base which allowed me to put a pipe in very neatly.
With any tanked machine you do need to clean the internal tank very frequently. It's easy to overlook it if you adopt any solution like these. The combination of stagnant water and a gentle bug-growing temperature could get unhealthy otherwise. I'm told that filtered water - especially filters that remove chlorine - can exacerbate this.
If you are serious about plumbing in a machine and like the Quickmills I would spend another hundred bucks and opt for the Vetrano. It is for all intents and purposes an Andreja with a rotary pump.
Also, does anyone know what the pain level is for refilling the Brewtus (or the Andreja for that matter)
Never used the cup warmer on the Anita which just fit under the cabinets but she slid across the counter with almost no effort. In fact the Silvia which weighs about half as much as the Anita is more difficult to slide across the counter.
wideasleep1 Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 581 Location: Sausalito,Ca Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: VBMDoubleDomo Grinder: Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: nope Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: IR1 and 2,SC/TO,Behmor
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 9:14pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
mrgnomer Said:
I'm wondering, wideasleep1, what temp have you set for your VBM DoubleDomo? I've read where PID's HXs have to be offset quite a bit not only to get steam but to keep the group from getting too cold. Setting a temp for brewing is too cold. They have to be set higher. I think that's because of the distance of the group from the boiler, how much the group sticks out (makes it prone to cooling) the HX line and the thermosyphon loop all shedding heat.
HA! I've been all over the map...as high as 225 at one point (Monsooned Malabar-which is indeed odd as it often pulls fine in the mid-high 190's). Current batches are behaving nicely at 219..Classic Italian roasted to FC++ with a few semi-burnt beans, and Brazil Moreninha Formosa @ FC+...nice rich bottom end. I've been tending to raise the temps slightly when I notice sour creeping in my freshest roasts (still not completely degassed). I still want to get Eric's E61 TC attachments and goo so I can get a better feel for group temps, but I'm busy with other things at present, and it'll have to wait.
If it is practical for you to do it, plumbing in (and out as well) is definitely the way to go for any type of machine. I'd hate to go back to filling a tank and emptying messy slops.
Posted Fri Jul 18, 2008, 11:51am Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
wideasleep1 Said:
HA! I've been all over the map...as high as 225 at one point (Monsooned Malabar-which is indeed odd as it often pulls fine in the mid-high 190's). Current batches are behaving nicely at 219..Classic Italian roasted to FC++ with a few semi-burnt beans, and Brazil Moreninha Formosa @ FC+...nice rich bottom end. I've been tending to raise the temps slightly when I notice sour creeping in my freshest roasts (still not completely degassed). I still want to get Eric's E61 TC attachments and goo so I can get a better feel for group temps, but I'm busy with other things at present, and it'll have to wait.
Sounds like you have to offset the temp given a good brew temp is between 190F-205F depending on your roast and taste. If I had to guess it's the e61 group and maybe the thermosyphon loop acting as a heat sink. I haven't read the VBM DoubleDomo thread so I don't know if that was discussed there. Eric's thermocouple adapter is not a bad idea to find out what the temps are in the brewpath.
Without really knowing for sure it seems your offset confirms what I've read about either PIDing an e61 HX or intergrating an e61 onto a double boiler.
What I know, and I might be wrong, is that the e61's mass and added thermosyphon loop is meant to keep fairly stable temps with a boiler held at well over boiling point temps/pressure. There's a point where you can't really go lower than a certain temp in the boiler or your machine will run too cold. With HX's the boiler is well above boiling point at the standard 1.2 bar pressure so that's why the group and HX line overheat a bit and require a flush.
amwreck Senior Member Joined: 6 Mar 2006 Posts: 32 Location: Jacksonville Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: MELITTA COMPACT 15 BAR PUMP... Grinder: Capresso Burr Grinder #551 Vac Pot: Bodum Drip: Mr. Coffee Roaster: None
Posted Fri Jul 18, 2008, 5:44pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
Quick question about the Vetrano. Does anyone know how easy or hard it is to switch the knobs on it? I like the knobs from the Anita better than the ones on the Vetrano. If I'd buy the Vetrano, I think it would be awesome to be able to switch the knobs.
Posted Sat Jul 19, 2008, 1:30am Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
amwreck Said:
Quick question about the Vetrano. Does anyone know how easy or hard it is to switch the knobs on it? I like the knobs from the Anita better than the ones on the Vetrano. If I'd buy the Vetrano, I think it would be awesome to be able to switch the knobs.
Beezer Senior Member Joined: 17 Oct 2006 Posts: 370 Location: Fresno, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Quickmill Anita Grinder: La Cimbali Max Hybrid
Posted Sat Jul 19, 2008, 3:00pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
You don't want the knobs from the Anita. Trust me. They leak after a few months, and then you have to rebuild them and replace the internals. It's a hassle. The knobs/valves on the Andreja and Vetrano are non-compression commercial valves, so they should never need to be rebuilt. Much better.
I'd second the recommendation to go with the Vetrano if you want to plumb in anyway. The vibe pump in my Anita is very loud, and I'm guessing the Andreja is the same way. The rotary pump in the Vetrano would be much more pleasant to live with. For only $100 more, it's worth the money for the peace and quiet.
amwreck Senior Member Joined: 6 Mar 2006 Posts: 32 Location: Jacksonville Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: MELITTA COMPACT 15 BAR PUMP... Grinder: Capresso Burr Grinder #551 Vac Pot: Bodum Drip: Mr. Coffee Roaster: None
Posted Sat Jul 19, 2008, 5:11pm Subject: Re: Some purchasing advice for someone that has done the homework, please?
I think I'm settling in on the decision to buy the Vetrano. As for the knobs from the Anita, I was hoping just for the star shaped knobs... not the valves or any of the other internals. But, that I can worry about later. I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on this deal. I just have to decide where to buy from. Chris' Coffee is an obvious choice because of everything I've heard about their support. But, Great Infusions adds a couple of extras to their package including:
That seems like a good idea because I do need to upgrade from what I have right now. I've got a steaming pitcher that is more like a Turkish coffee pot thing with the handle out to the side. Very hard to pour art with. I use a meat thermometer with a small dial (when I use one) and my tamper is a plastic one on the end of a coffee scoop. Plus, I could use some good espresso cups.
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 