Posted Sun Sep 7, 2008, 9:29am Subject: Re: Heat Exchange vs. Rotary Boiler
Fredz Said:
Also one thing to think about is to take a look at the top machines the world offers, look up thier specs !! and I think you will see double boilers and rotary pumps
And you will also find these machines outside of the $2500 budget.
Fredz Said:
I guess I am missing somthing ! I had a HX and now I have a dual boiler so I can tell you that the HX machine is just a pain in the neck / to much flushing , it is just a cheap way to make a machine for the market!
That isn't exactly the case. There's reasons there are so few dual boiler machines for the consumer market. Having the power to run both boilers can be tough for a standard 110v outlet in the kitchen. In addition, 2 boilers take up more space where footprint is generally a concern for the average home barista. A cooling flush does take some getting used to, but I certainly don't consider an HX machine to offer inferior espresso. A high quality, well designed HX machine will offer good consistant predictable espresso. But, it isn't for everyone. Yes, a double boiler will typically be more user friendly, but how user friendly is only ONE thing to consider when buying an espresso machine and that factor will weigh in differently for everone.
Fredz Said:
try not to buy twice or three times to get what you want
Are you referring to HX? If so, how is that a "trap"? Offers good features for a reasonable price.
A moot point now, but for the sake of better espresso, I would have advised the OP to spend $2000 on a decent HX and spend that extra $500 on a better grinder than the mini; such as a super jolly or major.
My point isn't to talk anyone out of a double boiler and into an HX, but the OP wanted to hear about both machines while only the double boilers were being discussed.
Fredz Senior Member Joined: 24 Mar 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Florida Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Brewtus 2 Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Posted Sun Sep 7, 2008, 11:48am Subject: Re: Heat Exchange vs. Rotary Boiler
GS/3****high end / Alex Duetto *****Low end **** Mazzer mini grinder ****would be my choice at this time // that does not mean it is the best for everyone !!!!just my opinion !!! just take it for what it is worth and that is all ....I do not need to offend anyone !!!!
rbh1515 Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2003 Posts: 1,059 Location: Milwaukee Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Sep 7, 2008, 5:35pm Subject: Re: Heat Exchange vs. Boiler (was Rotary Boiler)
joes1958 Said:
Thanks gang. I guess part of my confusion was regarding basic engineering of machines. I thought I had a bit if a grip on thatbut my confusion was even more fundemental. I did buy a mazzer mini last week and am eagerly awaiting its delivery.
BTW, 2500 was for the coffee machine.
the question was HX vs boiler ... I guess I should have said boiler with roatary pump
Joe, Check out the Astra Gourmet: http://www.astramfr.com/ Its one of the few HX machines that is available with a water tank and has a rotary pump. It is a bullet-proof machine. Very well built. You can buy direct from Astra and get a pretty good price. Rob
Posted Sun Sep 7, 2008, 6:03pm Subject: Re: Heat Exchange vs. Boiler (was Rotary Boiler)
astra is a great company as is really good to deal with. I got a pro and not a gourmet, but a great deal can be had for buying factory direct. They occasionaly have demos for sale that can be had for a good price as well. If an HX is something that will meet your requirements, I couldn't think of a better machine. Good recommendation rob.
Psyd Senior Member Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 881 Location: MON AZ Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Sylvia and Astoria Argenta... Grinder: Rocky and Astoria (Mazzer)...
Posted Sun Sep 7, 2008, 7:07pm Subject: Re: Heat Exchange vs. Rotary Boiler
Joel_B Said:
A moot point now, but for the sake of better espresso, I would have advised the OP to spend $2000 on a decent HX and spend that extra $500 on a better grinder than the mini; such as a super jolly or major.
Joel, you've been beating me to the punch all along! I'd suggest spending another grand on the grinder and get a $1500 machine. As I've always said, the grinder makes yer espresso, the machine simply gets water hot and pushes it through the puck. Granted, the more money you spend on a machine the easier it is to get it to do that with consistency and fewer gyrations on the handle side of the PF, but I'm having a hard time comparing a mini to an SJ.
Posted Sun Sep 7, 2008, 7:28pm Subject: Re: Heat Exchange vs. Rotary Boiler
well said psyd. I had the "proof is in the grinder" after getting my M4; probably would get it again if/when i get a major or?
I've gotten near as good results with my dream as I have with my Pro; it's a matter of how hard it is to get there. I suppose it's like having power stearing, cuise control, GPS, and auto trans; might make it easier to get from A to B, but none of that will get me to work any sooner than a 1985 tercel.
Dave I'll have to eat crow here a little as I looked and my Pro is a 15 amp similar to the entry level dual boilers. However, there are two elemens and boilers which will limit the heating element capacity which in turn limits the boiler sizes, but still ought to be fine for the home barista. With "ease"? yeah, i still think I'll keep my mixer and toaster off.
"good hx"; is that an oxymoron in your book? :) you clearly aren't an HX fan (and I'm not exactly sure of your strong aversion), but approaching the cost of a dual boiler means there's still a gap. Entry level dual (aside from a brewtus maybe) is $2K and up? A "good hx" can be had for under $1500. Bricco's can be boughten for under $1300, Astra Pro is $1500 (ish) and can be found for less. Anita is $1450, Andreja premium is $1700. My point is that the $300-$700 price difference is a lot to me to the ENTRY LEVEL dual boilers. It's enough to buy a grinder and make it a package.
I'm sure both of don't want to get into a "tastes great" "less filling" arguement here, but great, consistant espresso CAN be had with an HX machine. I know you think cooling flushes are "ridiculous" and "guessing", but aside from more volume is it any different than a heating flush on a dual boiler? And if I know how much to flush is it guessing? cooling flushes aren't going to be for everybody though for sure.
Well, I sure have learned a lot. Thanks for the comments and suggestions. My mini arrived today and I am tinkering with the grind. Honestly, I'll need to work through this one before considering even spedning a dollar more on a grinder ... Now for a much better machine.
Lady_Croft Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 63 Location: Michigan Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Sat Sep 13, 2008, 7:36pm Subject: Re: Heat Exchange vs. Rotary Boiler
Whoa, good think I read this post. I was just re-reading the topic I started - what seems like ages ago- about what was the best home machine to buy, because I am now re-thinking and need to research some more. The Brewtus was suggested, and I was thinking about it. According to THIS discussion, however, the Brewtus is definately not the way to go!! So I'll strike that one off the list. and now I am more confused and less close to coming to a decision than ever! In addition, I also have less money than ever before! Arrrrrrgghhh! WHY!? Why can't I just have a Gs3?? oh yeah, I don't have 7,000 dollars and never will.....phoey.
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