grumpybarista Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 180 Location: Detroit Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: LP Pub1 Grinder: Mazzer Mini w/ doser, NS... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: French Press, aeropress Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Dec 20, 2009, 8:27am Subject: What's worse, preground or poorly ground?
I get asked all the time about grinding, because most people don't have their own high end grinder, and by that I mean most people tend to have a blade grinder, and little more. Even the low end burr grinders in my experience don't cut it for quality espresso. So the question then is, short of plunking down a few hundred dollars, is it better to buy pre-ground? I have my own opinion, but I'm curious what the forum comes back with.
emptycup Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 12 Location: vancouver Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: cellini premium plus Grinder: rocky Roaster: behmor 1600
Posted Sun Dec 20, 2009, 8:51am Subject: Re: What's worse, preground or poorly ground?
grumpybarista Said:
I get asked all the time about grinding, because most people don't have their own high end grinder, and by that I mean most people tend to have a blade grinder, and little more. Even the low end burr grinders in my experience don't cut it for quality espresso. So the question then is, short of plunking down a few hundred dollars, is it better to buy pre-ground? I have my own opinion, but I'm curious what the forum comes back with.
Grumpy Baristas may be less frustrated if they just made coffee instead of poor espresso. It seems to me that the goal of having espresso from pre-ground or poorly ground coffee could only lead to disappointment. What's worse, in answer to the question is something I can't answer as neither lends itself to anything near a good shot. I would be happier with a coffee from and uneven grind of fresh coffee over trying to make a shot from either of the options presented.
grumpybarista Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 180 Location: Detroit Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: LP Pub1 Grinder: Mazzer Mini w/ doser, NS... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: French Press, aeropress Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Dec 20, 2009, 9:31am Subject: Re: What's worse, preground or poorly ground?
I should have known better than to ask this question here :) However, to clarify, I always recommend for people to upgrade their grinder before their espresso machine. Still, there are many people out there who are not quite as geeky about this stuff as we are, and are content to drink a lesser quality cup. My feeling is that over time they will develop their own taste to demand higher quality. In the meantime, for these people, what is recommended? I can see pro's, or rather con's, for either side.
harrymanback Senior Member Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 211 Location: slo*cal Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: expobar brewtus ii Grinder: la cimbali md6, baratza... Drip: nah...bodum press(es) Roaster: modded wear•ever popcorn...
Posted Sun Dec 20, 2009, 10:42am Subject: re: what's worse, preground or poorly ground?
pre-ground is worse.
it's a travesty that so many third wave shops will grind for their customers. i know it's gotta be hard to know where to draw the line in turning away money, but still. . . priorities:
1. fresh ground 2. good roast 3. good grinder 4. appropriate temperature 5. good water 6. good machine 7. barista skill set (regardless of brew method: adjusting steep time, grind, tamp, etc)
grumpybarista Said:
to clarify, i always recommend for people to upgrade their grinder before their espresso machine. still, there are many people out there who are not quite as geeky about this stuff as we are, and are content to drink a lesser quality cup. . . .
i've had two similar discussions recently with two aspiring coffee enthusiasts who have enjoyed several cups of coffee at my house. first enthusiast: "show me how to make a good press pot," wanting to skip to level 7. i told her she needs to first be willing to buy a good, entry-level burr grinder or else any techniques i show her will be meaningless. second enthusiast: "tell me what to buy, grinder / espresso machine combo for under $200," jumping ahead to level 6. again, i advised first the need to be willing to invest in a good roast once a week, second the need to invest in a good grinder ($200 being the entry point to a good espresso grinder, alone).
unfortunately, americans have been marketed to for so long that a) there is always a quick fix and b) there is always an option within my budget to get close to where i want to be. the reality is that good coffee doesn't have to be super expensive (i roast 95% of what i drink -- third wave quality at costco prices), but good espresso requires a bit of a down payment.
harry.
"i should pull up the hardwood to see if there's carpet underneath! . . . no, that's never the case."
Posted Sun Dec 20, 2009, 11:22am Subject: Re: What's worse, preground or poorly ground?
grumpybarista Said:
I get asked all the time about grinding, because most people don't have their own high end grinder, and by that I mean most people tend to have a blade grinder, and little more. Even the low end burr grinders in my experience don't cut it for quality espresso. So the question then is, short of plunking down a few hundred dollars, is it better to buy pre-ground? I have my own opinion, but I'm curious what the forum comes back with.
I dunno. Which is better, swine flu or measles? It's silly to drink bad espresso, when you can make great, fresh-ground drip or French press coffee with under $30 in equipment.
emptycup Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 12 Location: vancouver Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: cellini premium plus Grinder: rocky Roaster: behmor 1600
Posted Sun Dec 20, 2009, 11:41am Subject: Re: What's worse, preground or poorly ground?
MarshallF Said:
I dunno. Which is better, swine flu or measles? It's silly to drink bad espresso, when you can make great, fresh-ground drip or French press coffee with under $30 in equipment.
vvyk3d Senior Member Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Chicago Area Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Dec 20, 2009, 12:36pm Subject: Re: What's worse, preground or poorly ground?
Whats worse for who? The geek with 10k dollars invested in his equipment or the random person that enjoys instant? Taste is too subjective to answer this question properly. The worst option is the one that the drinker dislikes. There are some folks that really think instant is delicious, are they wrong? No they aren't, but that might not be the popular opinion. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but it seems often that folks regard what tastes good as a general fact rather than a personal opinion.
To approach this from another angle. Poorly ground coffee doesn't really allow any machine/method to work as it should be it drip, FP, espresso whatever. Pre-ground might not be the freshest but you can get it ground properly for whatever application you need. Isn't grind everything in the coffee world? Freshness is certainly important but would the answer be the same if you were to take a bag of beans from a grocery store (already stale) and grind one with a commercial grinder for your application and then another with your crap whirly grinder at home? Obviously some people would not drink either but in terms of the mechanics of the machines themselves, I would think properly pre-ground coffee would win.
Posted Sun Dec 20, 2009, 1:35pm Subject: Re: What's worse, preground or poorly ground?
I had planned to stay out of this one. I'm willing to say that a tree falling in the forest only makes a sound if there is an ear to hear it (otherwise it only makes a vibration), but this question certainly has no right answer. Then I read this,
vvyk3d Said:
To approach this from another angle. Poorly ground coffee doesn't really allow any machine/method to work as it should be it drip, FP, espresso whatever. Pre-ground might not be the freshest but you can get it ground properly for whatever application you need. Isn't grind everything in the coffee world?
It occurred to me that we've often said that it is nearly impossible to dial in a grinder when it is down the street at the local roasters. Fresh or not, who's to say that the grind of your pre-ground coffee will be right for your machine? I'd be willing to say that pre-ground will probably not be the proper grind for any given machine and improperly ground is not much of an improvement over poorly ground. At least poorly ground is fresh. I'd also feel much better sending the message that fresh beans, freshly ground is a key part of making good espresso than I would if I were to suggest the use of pre-ground coffee. That way, if a customer comes back and complains, you have the opportunity to discuss the merits of using a decent quality grinder. If you sell someone pre-ground coffee and they are less than satisfied, will you feel good telling them that they took your advice and bought stale coffee?
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