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Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

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Iluvdabean
Senior Member

Joined: 7 Mar 2005
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Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
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Posted Fri Jan 8, 2010, 11:53am Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

Notice the sheer size of the dispersion screen on the Gaggia Classic also as compared to the small Breville one. (Click for larger image)

Jmanespresso
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Espresso: Alex Duetto II
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Posted Fri Jan 8, 2010, 1:26pm Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

It's interesting to note, that the pic of the Breville group/screen setup.. Looks a lot like a Pod-Group.. Like one you would add to a machine(Silvia, Vivaldi, Oscar etc etc)

Follow Your Bliss Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias

rarebear
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Posted Fri Jan 8, 2010, 7:35pm Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

Hey, I'm good with you can NOT get good espresso from a Thermoblock...... Before I posted you all seemed all over the place and just said bad espresso what more you need to know or Breville enough said... I cant learn much from statements like that... I look at making espresso as hot water 185º -204º being pushed though coffee grounds @ the golden rule I fail to see why the mass is important if the water is the correct temp unless it cools too much as it goes through the PF I do know the basket is not a screen but pierced holes and now see the shower head has more holes too.. There are so many machines and no clear winners that I can tell..... I thought I would buy a Silvia then seen people say no get a Giggia Classic and it gets worse as to who makes the best or one of the best in the $1,000 to $1,500 or $1,500 to $2,000 seems like anyone is good.. what I do know is no one say the LM GS3 @ $7,000 is bad machine but seems like it should make the best darn espresso in the world at that price... I am saying its very hard to learn whats good and why.. If a LM is a 10+ and a Krups is a 1- Where is the Thermoblocks and where to the $1,000 and $2,000 machines fit? or is it like women only 2s and 9s?

bambooculm
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Espresso: Breville BES860 Barista...
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Posted Sat Jan 9, 2010, 6:01am Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

Rarebear, I’m hoping that you might listen. My choice of words was unfortunate before. I was speaking about the internet generally, when I stated that there is a lot of deliberately false information, not this particular website. I have read deliberately false reviews of products on websites, but not on this one. I wish to clarify that. On thermoblocs: the anti-thermobloc argument was true in 1962, but not in the year 2010. The Sunbeam company was the first to mass produce a modern thermobloc that overcame previous problems. Now I quote the great Alan Frew: “By using a large, stainless steel lined thermoblock and electronic temperature control in the EM6900 machine Sunbeam have been able able to overcome most of the limitations, leading to reasonable shot quality.” Likewise, the electronic temperature control in the Zip Hydro-Tap is another example of a modern thermobloc that has a small on-board computer. I first read a bitter attack on thermobloc machines on this website, a few years ago, and the author has since praised modern thermobloc machines. The strength of the recent vitriol, made me do a little research. Consider the following: The thread began with a newbie seeking advice about the latest Breville machine. This led to attacks on Breville from someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the latest Improvements or models. I actually tried to assist her by directing her to an Australian website with fairly good instructional videos for newbies with problems. Simple stuff like proper tamping, and placement of the portafilter etc. Others attacked Breville and myself. Then there was the anti-thermobloc tirade from someone who does not realise that the year is 2010. The machine that Stacey has comes with pressurized and normal portafilter baskets. I do not use the pressurized ones, but realize that they do have a place. They are meant for use with pre-ground supermarket coffee. At least if you have both sets, you have the option of using the pressurized filter for someone who wants decaffeineated coffee. I do not work for Breville, but I am the only one in this thread who has real knowledge of the machine that she has. The guy who wanted to attack me and Sunbeam was a complete joke. Sunbeam does not make 110 volt gear as far as I know. Zin1953 realised that things work much better with 240 volts. Ask anyone from Australia what they think of 110 volts. At first, I began to doubt myself, and considered that the problem might simply be 110 volts. The Italians love the thermobloc machines and talk of acqua viva (live water), the theory being that fresh water is used each time, instead of water from a boiler, and therefore the espresso shot actually tastes better. In Italy, 220-240 volts is used, and to stir things along a little, Nespresso claimed in 2009 that Nespresso had become Italy’s top selling brand of coffee. Modern thermobloc machines still work with 110 volts of electricity. There are glowing reviews of Jura Ena 5 machines, Nespresso machines, and various superautomatics that use the thermobloc technology in the U.S.A. There are glowing revues on this website of late model machines that use thermobloc technology. There may be subtle differences in temperature with a modern thermobloc machine that can be detected with a thermometer, but not by a human, just as the human nose cannot tell the difference between natural rose oil and synthetic. We lack the senses of a bloodhound or a thermometer. If you have a late model thermobloc machine and non-pressurised portafilters, you can make a great espresso. I hope that this makes sense to you, and I hope that Stacey looks at some instructional videos, as I was the guy who really wanted to help her. Could it be possible that people used her post as an excuse to attack Breville, to attack the idea that something good might come from Australia, to attack the idea that a thermobloc machine might produce a decent espresso.

JasonBrandtLewis
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Joined: 9 Dec 2005
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Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
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Posted Sat Jan 9, 2010, 8:39am Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

rarebear Said: Hey, I'm good with you can NOT get good espresso from a Thermoblock...... Posted January 8, 2010 link Well, I never have. rarebear Said: Before I posted you all seemed all over the place and just said bad espresso what more you need to know or Breville enough said...I cant learn much from statements like that... Posted January 8, 2010 link What I said before -- presuming this response is directed at me -- is that you should "run awaaaaaayyyyy" from Brevilles, that I have never been able to pull a good shot from one, and that the espresso "sucks." Now, for me, that's enough. For me, it's all about what is IN the cup, and what technique someone uses, or what machine, or what bean, or -- whatever -- doesn't matter IF what's in the cup is great. It's never been great with a Breville in my experience, and that's not rumour; that's fact. The "why" is honestly less important to me -- I figure, rightly or wrongly, if someone like me with 30 years experience using consumer machines (not "prosumer," but machines designed for home use) can't pull a decent shot with one brand of machine, the problem isn't mine . . . I grant you that, from the above, you will not learn the "whys" -- which are more important to you than to me. But no one is trying to lead anyone astray or "baffle them with b**$#!+" . . . rarebear Said: I fail to see why the mass is important if the water is the correct temp unless it cools too much as it goes through the PF. Posted January 8, 2010 link You got it in one. This is why you cannot make great espresso with a warmup time of 30 seconds, and why a machine like mine needs a minimum of 30 minutes warm-up before I can pull a shot, and at least an hour before it's really* ready for "serious" use. The machine has to reach a state of thermal stability. A massive grouphead and hefty portafilter (warmed by being locked in the group) will keep the water hot as it passes through the group and the portafilter basket. No warm-up time, and the water cools dramatically (and instantly). A lightweight grouphead disperses too much heat. A cold portafilter absorbs too much heat. And so on and so on and so on . . . rarebear Said: There are so many machines and no clear winners that I can tell..... Posted January 8, 2010 link Clear losers, maybe, but clear winners? No. You're absolutely right. Any ONE of DOZENS AND DOZENS of machines out there are capable of producing excellent espresso, Johnny. The key is YOU, not the machine. Do you know the Four M's of Espresso? The Macinazione is the grinder and the correct grinding of a coffee blend; the Miscela is the coffee blend itself; the Macchina is the espresso machine; and, last but certainly not least, is the Mano, the skilled hand of the barista. You've spent all this time (and energy) on the machine, and you haven't even discussed grinders -- arguably the more important piece of equipment. rarebear Said: I thought I would buy a Silvia then seen people say no get a Giggia Classic and it gets worse as to who makes the best or one of the best in the $1,000 to $1,500 or $1,500 to $2,000 seems like anyone is good. Posted January 8, 2010 link Get the Silvia. If you truly READ what people have said, NO ONE has criticized the quality of a Silvia. No one! The criticism about the Silvia is all about the price tag. The Silvia is a rock-solid machine that is overpriced. That is the criticism of Miss Silvia -- she is overpriced. But is it a good machine? Absolutely! The differences between the Silvia and machines like the Gaggia CLassic and the Le'Lit PL041 are, in the grand scheme of things, relatively minor. But the price difference is not. THAT is the issue. Johnny, a common problem encountered by most people looking to buy an espresso machine -- and this is true whether it's the first time, or the fifth -- is that, while they are researching various machines, they reach a stage that's often referred to as "Analysis Paralysis." They get overwhelmed, frustrated, paralyzed, and they want to throw in the proverbial towel. It's not that hard, Johnny. But you do need to remember that there is no single machine that is "best," no single "one size fits all" machine that will be right for everyone. That's why, whenever someone comes online and says "help," we -- as regular participants on this site -- try to do just that! We try to help. I always ask questions: What kind of espresso-based drinks do you like? That will help me get an idea of what you need a machine to do -- will you need lots of steam, a hot water tap, etc. How many drinks would you make at any one time, on average? That will help me get an idea of "peak demand" -- do you need to make four drinks at a time on an average morning (you, your partner, kids?), or would you make one or two? -- and how fast the machine can "rebound." How many drinks would you make, on average, over a given week? That gives me an idea of workload and the need for durability. What is your budget, and does that include the grinder? Personally, I try very hard not to recommend items that will break the person's budget, although I admit to using 110% of the person's budget sometimes. Great espresso doesn't have to be expensive -- and what defines "expensive" can vary with the individual -- but it does require some spending. rarebear Said: what I do know is no one say the LM GS3 @ $7,000 is bad machine but seems like it should make the best darn espresso in the world at that price... Posted January 8, 2010 link Well, not if you pair it with a crappy grinder or stale beans . . . the machine doesn't make espresso. The person operating the machine makes the espresso! rarebear Said: Where is the Thermoblocks and where to the $1,000 and $2,000 machines fit? Posted January 8, 2010 link Well, as I said above, I don't know that thermoblocks are incapable of making great espresso; I only know I have never had a great espresso from a thermoblock machine. Thus, I do not recommend them. Rather than think of "$1,000 machines versus $2,000 machines," try instead to think of different CLASSES of machines (rather than PRICES) -- at least for a moment. There is a significant leap in quality from "consumer" machines and "prosumer" machines -- machines designed like appliances for the home (or, rather, strictly for home use), versus machines which use professional parts in a consumer size. Prosumer machines could run a low-volume, small café or deli, but many people have taken these "prosumer" machines and put them in their homes. The quality of consumer machines can vary widely, from Breville, DeLonghi, and Krups on the one hand to Rancilio, Le'Lit, and some Gaggia models on the other. They can also vary widely in price, from $100 to about $600 or so. But once you get into the prosumer category of machines -- and these range from $1,000 up to, say, $2,500 or so* -- it's not easy to find one that sucks. Sure some are better than others, period, and some may better suit your particular needs more than others, but it's not easy to find one that is truly horrible. It seriously comes down to you: what you need from your machine. Cheers, Jason * One can make a serious argument that the GS3 is, in fact, a prosumer machine, but I prefer to think of it as commercial . . . that works in the home, too. At least, for some people. ;^)

A morning without coffee is sleep . . .

Iluvdabean
Senior Member

Posted Sat Jan 9, 2010, 10:43am Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

When a person makes a wrong turn on their journey they one of two choices. 1) Turn around and seek guidance and get on the right path 2) Continue on ignoring all the wrong way road signs until you miss the destination. The Breville espresso machine represents the wrong way into the land of good espresso. It was never designed to make real espresso just an espresso like substance. Thats why it originally came with an easily to plug pressurized portafilter basket and it even came with a little plastic metal probe device to unplug it. It wasnt ever designed to be used for correct tamping and 25-30 second shots. Once they got enough machines returned or read enough forums they started damage control and rather than improve the machines internals they opted to throw in a real filter basket. So what you get with a Breville is a machine that cant deliver the correct temperature water or maintain thermal efficiency. Its a terrible hoax and many who just buy it because a salesperson, as opposed to as a passionate espresso barista, tells them it will work.On another thread here carebear you rightfully said you have never been able get water over 190 degrees. I commend you for your honesty. Thats really the truth. I think it takes more intestinal fortitude and character to admit a mistake and turn around rather that further try to perpetuate an illusion. What people buy in the land down under is their own business and they can believe they are on the cutting edge of espresso technology if they want to but Achilles Gaggia was designing espresso machines when they were still trying to build a peculator. So show me those dark rich timely pulls. Show me the correct temps on a video. Talk talk talk is all I hear...why no real tests...maybe these people at Seattle Coffee Gear will step up to the plate but here they even elude to its weaknesses but are still selling them. Watch under extractions due to thermoblock inadequacies..Come on Kat & Gale,,,test it!!!!!!!! The burden of proof lies with the claimant. Click Here (www.youtube.com)

cappuccinoboy
Senior Member

Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 789
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Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
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Posted Sat Jan 9, 2010, 2:28pm
Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

Jmanespresso Said:

If you are able to get good results from your Breville Machine. . . ..... Machines that house Thermoblock heating systems, do not deliver consistent results.
.......................
It is 100% reasonable to conclude that, maybe, in Australia, Breville machines have better performance, because they run on 220V power.. but here in the USA, they are not even adequate to make good espresso. NO Thermoblock machine is.
.......................
On the other hand, Gaggia machines ARE 100% reliable, solid machines, capable of producing GREAT espresso. Machines like: The Gaggia Classic, Baby Class, Baby, New Baby, and those models with the volumetric dosing features.. .......ALL house the same, original aluminum boiler, and high powered, 1250W heating element.
......

Posted January 7, 2010 link

bambooculm Said:

Rarebear,
I’m hoping that you might listen. ..............
On thermoblocs: the anti-thermobloc argument was true in 1962, but not in the year 2010.
The Sunbeam company was the first to mass produce a modern thermobloc that overcame previous problems. Now I quote the great Alan Frew:
“By using a large, stainless steel lined thermoblock and electronic temperature control in the EM6900 machine Sunbeam have been able able to overcome most of the limitations, leading to reasonable shot quality.”
........... Then there was the anti-thermobloc tirade from someone who does not realise that the year is 2010. ................
The Italians love the thermobloc machines and talk of acqua viva (live water), the theory being that fresh water is used each time, instead of water from a boiler, and therefore the espresso shot actually tastes better. In Italy, 220-240 volts is used, and to stir things along a little, Nespresso claimed in 2009 that Nespresso had become Italy’s top selling brand of coffee. Modern thermobloc machines still work with 110 volts of electricity............... Could it be possible that people used her post as an excuse to attack Breville, to attack the idea that something good might come from Australia, to attack the idea that a thermobloc machine might produce a decent espresso.

Posted January 9, 2010 link

Early November I did my last post, I had joined with the aim to make new friends with the common passion for espresso but eventually I realized that beeing most of the times in disagreement , because of my totally different background (I only posted in espresso machines and in grinders), I was often misunderstood and my statements were taken as personal offence. which was NEVER in my intentions: but today, while I have nothing to say about Breville machines, I HAVE TO answer totally false statements : it is not true that thermoblock machines are NOT adequate to make great espresso, (after all the HX is an application of thermoblock technology)
IT IS NOT TRUE that thermoblock technology is inferior to boiler technology, in fact it happens to be the reverse
When Rarebear says that anti-thermoblock argument was true in 1962 but not in the year 2010 is talking nonsense, because 1962 was the year when first Acquaviva machine came to the market (the very second household machine made by OMRE-Quick Mill: Acquaviva was then a patent and still exists as registered trade name (THAT I OWN...): In the meanwhile a lot has been learned about thermoblocks and my personal opinion is still that a GOOD thermoblock is superior to a boiler...., alas there are a lot of cheap thermoblocks out there......., but again there are also people who praise the Gaggia aluminum boiler and we all know that aluminum was a cheap approach far inferior to a brass boiler....1250Watt heating element is excessive because unless PID controlled will cause inertia in temperature build up : to control inertia in a traditional way you either increase the mass or decrease the wattage....... there are people who still claim that the portafilter and portafilter holder group of Gaggias is "marine brass" which I doubt very much given the very poor machinabilty of marine brass.....while I strongly believe that like everybody else they use OT58 brass......Achille Gaggia was certainly a pionier but probably these days is turning upside down in the grave, at the idea that machines that carry his name are built in Romania, while people still think they are made in Italy, it is true that when I visited Romania (quite a few years ago) they proudly called themselves as the Romans of Danube........
I did one post in the Starbuck Sirena thread, where I answered people that claimed it was a BMW design, saying that to me it looked very much a re-designed Breville machine.....
The voltage 220/240 or 115/120 does Not affect the thermal efficiency of a machine because heating elements are built accordingly (with 115/120 you just have double Amps.)
But Jason (Zin1953) I found always genuine in the sense that he only talks personal experience or information gotten from very close friends, but I was often in disagreement with him too, ref Superautos and 38mm conical grinders.... funny to find out that Chris Coffee is sold out of a specific superauto:... either he imported few machines or he sold more than expected....... again it is wrong to compare a Lelit and a Silvia since they are different class household machines (although it is not wrong to judge on price)...., but again I more and more realize that this is a consumer 's forum and people report personal experience, and my approach to speack general and avoid direct comparison is not necessarily right, sometimes it is better to let metropolitan legends survive....
A Happy and Prosperous 2010 to everybody....
Jman, Jason, JonR I have not forgotten yr invitation for a great cup .....
Ciao, Pietro

rarebear
Senior Member

Posted Sat Jan 9, 2010, 10:22pm Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

Hello Mr. Cicchetti, Thank You, I tstarting to think it was me..... I will now look at thinks much different thanks to you...

cappuccinoboy
Senior Member

Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 789
Location: MILANO
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
Grinder: grind on demand

Posted Sun Jan 10, 2010, 7:56am
Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

rarebear Said:

I got two non-pressurized baskets from Breville for free by just calling and asking about the Golden Rule and what have they done to correct the cloging issues with the pressurized baskets...
.......................
I just hoping my Breville is not as bad as I read but I sure would like some facts as to what exacly what its flaws are other than bad espresso....

I cant even get an answer as to when I should time my shot on this (pre-infusion) machine...

When I turn the pump on or when the baskets starts to drip...

Posted January 7, 2010 link

.........

rarebear Said:

Hello Mr. Cicchetti,

Thank You, I tstarting to think it was me.....

I will now look at thinks much different thanks to you...

Posted January 9, 2010 link

hey, Johnny although I do not deserve your sarcasm I owe you apologies for attributing to you words that came from Bambooculm (although quotation was right), so I took the time to re-read all your posts in this particular thread and realize that you actually are the owner of a Breville800 and are asking why everybody thinks you should throw it away; well my advice is do not throw it away since with some little tricks you can have it make very decent espresso (it may not be the best machine out there, but certainly is not just a piece of junk as a few geeks call it, because a thermoblock machine.......it is not by chance that Solis adopted the very machine and market it under their name), after all also on "better" machines it seems that people turn to tricks like temperature surfing , etc. in order to get more consistency in temperature.., not to mention flushing practice in E61 group machines, and similar...
Machine is just one of the 4 variable M's, and although equally important as the others, it can be somehow "corrected" and made work better.....
It is a pre-infusion machine (triple burst...) and you should time your shot when your pump is ON fully.
First you worry about extraction time, adjusting accordingly your grinding profile : finer for longer extraction, coarser for shorter : when you have it right you worry about temperature.... fresh coffee is important and the 15 minutes-days-months rule applies (unless your supplier has adopted some specific packaging technique......., or you resort to freezing...I hate that : STALE, PERIOD statement that reflects only very personal belief....)
Your starting ref. point is the brewing temperature: you should have a brewed temperature of 172-180 farheneit (in the cup, and if you have any problem with a porcelain cup not hot enough, you should do a test with a styrofoam cup...); if you do not get that temperature you should replace the thermostat with a higher limit one : if it is 95°C use a 98°C (avoid going over 100°C because you could get an initial steam burst that would "burn" your espresso) and keep in mind that correct flow rate will determine correct brew temperature, in other words if the thermoblock is not well balanced a longer brew time will result in higher temperature and a shorter brew time will result in lower temperature that does affect the quality of extraction (remember the 172-180 rule).
The few degrees difference will possibly ONLY result in a richer brew where more solubles end in the cup..., not changing extraction time
Do not worry too much about size and weight of brew group and portafilter since the bigger mass just requires to be kept well warm basically to avoid sucking temperature from brewed coffee, in fact a stainless steel group, or plastic for the matter, are valid alternatives because they tend to suck MUCH LESS heat........
Hope that will help you in getting better performance from your Breville, and remember that ONLY if you can get the most out of that very machine you could be justified wanting to upgrade....hope this proves more helpfull than my previous general and abstract post, good luck
Ciao, Pietro

rarebear
Senior Member

Posted Sun Jan 10, 2010, 10:35am
Subject: Re: Any thoughts on the Breville Barista Express?

cappuccinoboy Said:

Posted January 9, 2010 link

Hello Mr. Cicchetti,

I am serious no sarcasm Thank You Very Much I now see it is not only Me who feels the same as you.......

I will just post a question and read the answers, seems trying to state an opinion on espresso forum I just get frustrated tying to convey my OPINION...

Also Thank You for your help on the Brewed Temps I only knew the Delivery Temps

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