radicalkat Senior Member Joined: 13 Jun 2009 Posts: 44 Location: Boston Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Le' lit Pl041 Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Sun Jan 31, 2010, 5:38pm Subject: Re: Dialing in a Lelit PL041
Hello,
Just got a Baratza Vario to go with my PL041. I'm also finding my shots to come out bitter...a back of the tongue bitterness. I've tried a bunch of different grinder settings. All seem to produce varying degrees of bitterness. Any luck with getting less bitter shots out there? I just started logging each shot to try to detect patterns. Only 2 shots logged so far. Too soon to tell.
What should I be paying the most attention to in this situation? Should I just give up on this roast and try another? It's a respectable local micro-roaster with a roast about a week old.
Posted Sun Jan 31, 2010, 5:58pm Subject: Re: Dialing in a Lelit PL041
I'm still working on my first blend. As mentioned earlier, supposedly darker blends want cooler temperatures, so if you have a darker roast, try something lighter. I'm trying Black Cat next, as recommended.
Posted Sun Jan 31, 2010, 7:02pm Subject: Re: Dialing in a Lelit PL041
radicalkat Said:
Hello,
Just got a Baratza Vario to go with my PL041. I'm also finding my shots to come out bitter...a back of the tongue bitterness. I've tried a bunch of different grinder settings. All seem to produce varying degrees of bitterness. Any luck with getting less bitter shots out there? I just started logging each shot to try to detect patterns. Only 2 shots logged so far. Too soon to tell.
What should I be paying the most attention to in this situation? Should I just give up on this roast and try another? It's a respectable local micro-roaster with a roast about a week old.
How long is your extraction? how long after you hit the switch do you see espresso? and does it drip, drip/stream (syrup), or just stream out of the PF? check your distribution, dose and grind.
try grinding a bit finer and tamping a bit lighter (enough to compensate for the grind remember 22sec), that levels off most bitterness for me, unless of course it is the roast.
-behind every great achievement is an even greater pot of coffee.
radicalkat Senior Member Joined: 13 Jun 2009 Posts: 44 Location: Boston Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Le' lit Pl041 Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Mon Feb 1, 2010, 3:15am Subject: Re: Dialing in a Lelit PL041
Thanks for the responses!
I, too, am on my first bag of beans. I will try a different roast next time. Regarding extraction time. I've run the gamut from free flowing to barely dripping. Flow usually starts at about 5 seconds (except for the times when it barely drips and the shot comes out really short.)
I'll try grinding finer and lightening up on the tamp.
atomichumbucker, Just curious, what blend are you using in this?
In other news.... Today was my first attempt at BlackCat, 6 Days since roast (1/27) I have to say, my mouth watered a little when I got the first whiff after cutting open the bag.. Very chocolate-y
Unfortunately, the consistency, bitterness and light colored crema were all still there. Very Guinness-y. I'm comparing this to the BlackCat that Kaffe1668 serves, which has more of an integrated chocolate-milk consistency.
Still can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
Someone suggested, somewhere on the forums, to try a finer grind and just lightly tamp it. Just barely heavier than the weight of the tamper, just to start. The claim was that this should eliminate any channeling issues and see if that is the problem. I'm not sure about the validity of that, but I tried it anyway. Pretty much everything was the same except the puck came out in one piece after the fact. I'm using 17 grams in the double basket.
My next move is to finish off this bag of black cat, then send in the portafilter for bottomless modification. Risking my only portafilter :( Maybe that will help troubleshoot this.
espressoaddict Senior Member Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 346 Location: Seattle Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia V3 (Primary)... Grinder: Baratza Vario 2009 and... Vac Pot: None Drip: Melitta Single Cup, Bodum...
Posted Tue Feb 2, 2010, 10:36pm Subject: Re: Dialing in a Lelit PL041
Not good!
That is VERY interesting you are still not getting acceptable results. In fact, I just finished my 2nd to last shot of Black Cat. Keep in mind, I pulled shots on both a Rancilio Silvia V3 and HB(Hamilton Beach) cheapo and both generated very great results. Of course the Silvia had better creama than the HB, but still the HB produced 1.75~ or dark espresso and that was using all stock parts even the PF. I even used my Gaggia MDF to grind 17.5~ grams for this Ristretto. Keep in mind, I'm not using a PID on any machine mentioned, and just temp surf.
Is it quite possible the pressure is just too high direct from the factory? It's even stated by 1st-line the OPV is set between 9-10 BAR. Forgive me if, I'm just lazy to reference it here, unless you ask, then it's heavily documented on 1st-line's website.
I suspect the puck is channeling somewhere. Usually the sign of channeling is pre-mature blonding due to uneven extraction. This may point to the grind, distribution and the higher pressure. A slight uneven distribution even with the Vario can be the result. Yes, I've seen it happen even using my Vario with a nikid PF. Channeling will near most of the time produce very bitter espresso. I'm sure you may already know this, but when it is very blond, then that is over-extraction.
Have you viewed the available Lelit machines on YouTube? Even a majority of their extractions are blondish. They seem to all be pulling double standards.
Even atomicmuncher's last shot was a Ristretto. Maybe Ristrettos are the only best possible shots on this machine.
Why not try to pull a Ristretto style shot, since you are seeking a more sweeter espresso. Ristrettos style shots may take more work to prepare, but they are sure worth making.
Here are a few references to hone your skills before trying.
Last request, if you can try and record you entire process, so others may see areas that might have been overlooked.
Providing a sample of a Ristretto shot pull, I did awhile back using a Rocky grinder as an example. Note: It's not the best, but just using as a reference for a example of how to get more coverage. Video
Courtesy of Home Barista. Please read more about WDT to understand more about uneven extractions and etc.
Posted Wed Feb 3, 2010, 2:58pm Subject: Re: Dialing in a Lelit PL041
espressoaddict Said:
Not good! Is it quite possible the pressure is just too high direct from the factory? It's even stated by 1st-line the OPV is set between 9-10 BAR. Forgive me if, I'm just lazy to reference it here, unless you ask, then it's heavily documented on 1st-line's website.
I think the stats that 1st-line uses refer to the 2010 edition of the PL041. The phrase that is used is "The overpressure valve (a.k.a. OPV) is now adjusted to 9-10 bar" implying that for models already out, the pressure is different. I can't figure out how different though (higher or lower)
As far as distribution, I have been dosing into a "halfway-house" cup to weigh, before I put it into the portafilter. Maybe I am inadvertently creating uneven clumps when pouring into the portafilter from a cup. I'll try grinding straight into the portafilter next time.
espressoaddict Said:
Why not try to pull a Ristretto style shot, since you are seeking a more sweeter espresso. Ristrettos style shots may take more work to prepare, but they are sure worth making.
More work to prepare? I though it just meant grinding a bit finer and stopping the shot at 1 oz instead of 2, well before the blonding point. Am I wrong about that?
boredatwork Senior Member Joined: 11 Feb 2009 Posts: 77 Expertise: Just starting
Posted Wed Feb 3, 2010, 3:32pm Subject: Re: Dialing in a Lelit PL041
A couple comments.
The old PL041 ( pre 2010 model ) has an OPV set to 10-11.5 bar. I don't know how much of a limitation this really is.
I find that by pulling smaller shots I have much more success compared to when I was going for regular 2-3oz doubles. I usually shoot for 1oz in 20-30 seconds. I arrived at this number when I read that it is better end the shot based on extraction then on amount per time. By stopping at blonding I found it was almost always about 1oz.
However, I am starting to think that blonding is as much or more about dose and tamp then the machine itself for reasons described below.
When I first got the naked portafilter I had a lot of channeling problems. These problems were showing up as premature blonding and also as high pressure squirts/sprays. There are two things that I did that seemed to fix this. First, tamping around the edge of the filter basket. Second, dosage.
Previously I was using about 16g-18g. One suggestion I got that really helped out was to dose less. Now I use about 14g-15g and that really helped out a lot - almost across the board with any bean. My theory on this is that the Lelit does not do well when the basket is too full, probably causing an uneven extraction.
I have had also had a lot of success with paying special attention to tamping around the edge of the basket. First I starting doing a nutating tamp and that helped, but recently I have been experimenting with a very exaggerated nutating tamp. To the point that when I am rolling the tamper around I am basically re-distributing the grinds. Similar to when you accidentally push to hard on one side and shift the whole puck in the basket. I came across a few posts at home barista that seemed to also echo success with this technique.
Now that I am able to obtain an even extraction I find that the time until blonding has been pushed out a little. I still would never be able to pull 2-3oz before blonding, but not its always at least 1oz.
Another thing that I found, that I have yet to fully test out, is using a lighter tamp. Based on how I do things it seems like the Lelit is very finicky when it comes to even extraction. I think when you go with a very heavy tamp, I think its possible that it causes too much resistance in certain spots of the puck so you get an uneven extraction. With a lighter tamp it might make sense that the pressure of the water out of the head (10-11 bar) is able to perform the tamp by itself in a better manner.
Im using a pacific islands blend from Aroma coffee roasters in Larchmont NY. About a week after roast in that pic I think. Pretty good, pretty complex, usually very light in color, but the roast is about full city+.
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