newf Senior Member Joined: 18 Aug 2009 Posts: 31 Location: WA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto Grinder: Vario
Posted Thu Feb 25, 2010, 4:39pm Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
Okay so it has taken me quite awhile to get the machine fixed and get back to you folks. Long story short there was a largish flake of metal stuck in the anti backflow valve which was keeping the valve open. With simple tools and simple mechanical skills it was fixed in no time. The machine is back to preforming just as new! Mucho thanks to the suggestions here and very big thanks to Tim one of the tech guys at Chris' Coffee. Travis
Posted Tue Mar 16, 2010, 4:26am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
Is it okay to raise the steam boiler pressure to 1.4 bar on the original Duetto?
Also, I don't like to cross-post, but I figured it was worth asking if I was posting in the thread anyway. Is what I'm hearing in this video normal, Dave? Someone on the other site suggested air in the lines, and that it only happens when running off the internal reservoir. It's a pretty jarring noise.
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 925 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Mar 16, 2010, 8:53am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
Bob_McBob Said:
Is it okay to raise the steam boiler pressure to 1.4 bar on the original Duetto?
Also, I don't like to cross-post, but I figured it was worth asking if I was posting in the thread anyway. Is what I'm hearing in this video normal, Dave? Someone on the other site suggested air in the lines, and that it only happens when running off the internal reservoir. It's a pretty jarring noise.
Well bob I run mine at about 1.3 bar (and have run at 1.4 bar), but I do have additional ventilation above my gicar PID and also better than the standard factory insulation on my steam boiler. I also run as a matter of course with the steam boiler off. If you check the coffeetime wiki ensure you add the extra ventilation/insulation (use the improved insulation of the fleece pond liner folded with a layer of foil) you should be OK, but, I am surprised you want 1.4 bar. The pressure/temp limit on the current dual PID Duettos (if that is what is worrying you), is a figure I pulled out of my engineers hat for Izzo as something I felt would be thermally prudent.
You probably did the right thing to cross post, because I don't bother replying to anything I read on Home Barista....just not worth the hassle.
No it's not normal, mine doesn't do it (even after 4 hours or more left untouched), but I suspect your water is hard, you use a jug filter, or other contaminants within the water if it's not hard.....either way, it's probably the anti backflow valve letting by a little. This could also be coupled with slight leakage in the group number 1 valve.. Easiest way to resolve might be to try a brew path descale. I can simulate your noise by lifting my feed pipe out of the water tank and shaking it to get the water out, I will then get the same sound as you.
You can do a quick check to see if I am right, simply set your PID to off with the machine cold (press and hold rh button), pull a shot and leave the machine for the appropriate length of time and then pull a blank again........, you should get no noise.
Posted Tue Mar 16, 2010, 9:30am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
Thanks, I'll try that when I get home. The water in the area is quite hard, but everyone here uses a softener. It shows up as "soft" on test strips, but I don't know the pH or any other details. I get scale in the kettle and my hot water dispenser fairly quickly, though.
I did descale both boilers only a couple of weeks ago. Is there a different procedure to descale the brew path?
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 925 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Mar 16, 2010, 10:07am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
It's all in the Wiki, but if you descaled, I wonder if your problems started after the descale, perhaps a lose bit of scale lodged somewhere, or a piece of crud.
The problem with a softener is that although better than hard water, there are still many other contaminants. In addition if your kettle is scaling then your softner isn't doing it's job!
I keep on about RO water that's then bicarb treated, I have a whole house softener at home, but still use treated RO water for the Duetto. Almost 99% of coffee machine problem are in some way related to water quality, hard, crap in the water whatever. People bang on about taste and other things, but that can all be remedied, plus the coffee tastes better from a machine that works, than one that doesn't.
MrShades Senior Member Joined: 16 Mar 2010 Posts: 11 Location: Swindon, Wiltshire, UK Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly
Posted Tue Mar 16, 2010, 3:45pm Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
DavecUK Said:
It's all in the Wiki, but if you descaled, I wonder if your problems started after the descale, perhaps a lose bit of scale lodged somewhere, or a piece of crud.
The problem with a softener is that although better than hard water, there are still many other contaminants. In addition if your kettle is scaling then your softner isn't doing it's job!
I keep on about RO water that's then bicarb treated, I have a whole house softener at home, but still use treated RO water for the Duetto. Almost 99% of coffee machine problem are in some way related to water quality, hard, crap in the water whatever. People bang on about taste and other things, but that can all be remedied, plus the coffee tastes better from a machine that works, than one that doesn't.
I'm looking for a good solution to providing my Duetto with the quality of water it really needs. I'm finding it difficult to decide between filtering and RO - it seems you prefer the RO route...???
RO appears to have plus points and minus points - same as proper filtering (as opposed to Brita jugs) - weighing up the one over the other is doing my head in!!!
I was starting to lean towards the Brita Purity C system, which looks good and appears quite cost effective. However, with you being the defacto expert on all things Duetto and obviously favouring an RO system I'm now in limbo!
Can you offer any advice or argument to finally convince me which way to go please? Ultimately, what will my Duetto be happiest with?
I'm struggling to get SHMBO to allow me to plumb the machine in, so I'm pouring over for the time being.... and as I'm only doing 2 or 3 double shots a day it's not an issue. However, I have limited space in my undersink cupboard for large RO storage vessels etc. and the Purity C stuff looks very compact - hence my leaning towards it.
What RO kit do you use (if you don't mind me asking)? There are many different ones - most cost effectively available on eBay - any issue with using any of these, especially those without large external storage vessels? 3 filter, 2 filter, etc. etc. all very complicated!
Any and all help you can give would be very much appreciated...
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 925 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Mar 17, 2010, 12:39am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
I use RO for all drinking water in our house. I have read an awful lot of nonsense about RO water on the internet, plus some pseudo science about how it demineralises the body, how the shape of the water molecule is changed by the RO process etc.. etc..
I have been quite clear in the Wiki articles about my reasons for preferring to use treated RO water in my espresso machines and the systems I use are linked to in the articles....for my own needs a 5 stage fully pumped system with storage tank works well. All my friends after making the change to RO water enjoy zero scale related problems with their machine. Unfortunately a lot of people are not even aware of scale related problems until they become quite obvious or cause more serious symptoms. In addition descaling (that little death to the machine each time you do it) becomes a thing of the past.
I don't get machine problems, because almost all problems are scale related, including much early failure of components. I can't really convince you one way or another, you need to convince yourself. If you try treated RO water and can taste a huge problem in the coffee you produce then you need to find a different solution. If all the stuff you read on forums confuses you, it's a fact of life that 100s of people will disagree with everything I have said, such is the nature of forums.
P.S. A mate of mine uses a very compact non pumped system with only a few filters and no storage tank for his machines water.....takes a while to fill the containers, but preserves cupboard space.
MrShades Senior Member Joined: 16 Mar 2010 Posts: 11 Location: Swindon, Wiltshire, UK Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly
Posted Wed Mar 17, 2010, 4:41am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
Thanks very much for that - very helpful. If I can trouble you and quiz you a little further (I've tried calling Vyair for help, but they seem to be on holiday or something!)
So - if I'm going down the RO route, do I NEED to soften as well - I assumed that the RO process would effectively soften at the same time?
You mentioned your mates system, which sounds ideal - is it something like this one:
Looks VERY cost effective, any downsides to it that you can see (other than fill rate?). Could well be the direction I'm leaning in now...
Sorry to be a pain and keep quizzing you Dave, and thanks for the help. If you'd rather respond by email and keep it off here then please do so - though I think this is probably of interest to all Duetto owners (nay, all Alex owners... heck, all Izzo owners!) - I know I've been looking for good info on it for ages....
Masterdebater Senior Member Joined: 26 Feb 2009 Posts: 14 Location: Canada Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Mini E - Type B Vac Pot: Looking Drip: What is that? Roaster: Considering
Posted Wed Mar 17, 2010, 11:11am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
Bob_McBob Said:
Is it okay to raise the steam boiler pressure to 1.4 bar on the original Duetto?
Also, I don't like to cross-post, but I figured it was worth asking if I was posting in the thread anyway. Is what I'm hearing in this video normal, Dave? Someone on the other site suggested air in the lines, and that it only happens when running off the internal reservoir. It's a pretty jarring noise.
I hear that as well with my duetto II, particularly if has sat for a bit. I have strictly used RO water from new. I summed it up to air getting in somehow through the intake hoses but really, unless it is running completely dry or I am pulling them out of the reservoir, there should be no air introduced that way. I fill the reservoir with a funnel so I never remove the hoses/reservoir. hmmm....
Posted Wed Mar 17, 2010, 12:20pm Subject: Re: Alex Duetto Owners-Please speak up!
I haven't tried Dave's test yet, but it occurred to me that I don't get the noise EVERY time I use the machine after it's been idling. It's fairly unpredictable, which means I'd probably have to follow some kind of experimental protocol to actually get any meaningful data. I've used the machine three times so far today, and it hasn't made the "pumping air" noise yet.
I also fill my reservoir with a funnel and never remove the hoses. Like Dave, I tried shaking the water out of the inlet hose and running the pump, and I got the same noise, except louder and for much longer.
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