boyscout Senior Member Joined: 29 Dec 2009 Posts: 404 Location: Toronto Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2010, 6:34pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
Sounds interesting, even to someone still stinging from the cost of purchasing Mr Crossland's last creation.
I'm a long way from being an engineer, but I have wondered why the almost universally-used means of maintaining temperature stability has been the very old idea of heating a large adjacent mass to the desired temperature. Even machines that have strayed a little from this idea - Dalla Corte's La Spaziale Vivaldis and his eponymous machines as well as the GS/3 - haven't strayed far from it.
Line heaters and other means of supplying temperature-on-demand have existed in other applications for a long time. It's fun to *guess* that Mr. Crossland may be thinking of precisely controlling devices like these to produce a desired temperature within a second or two of desiring it. Even more fun to think that it might be possible to program and store different temperature profiles for different coffees, though I'm one user who will probably leave the endless experimentation that permits up to others, and wait for them to publish their profile setups in a coffeegeek thread!
The pressure profiling available in the GS/3 paddle version was interesting, but I absolutely was not going to give up the convenience of volumetric dosing for it so I opted not to buy a paddle version. A new machine to usurp the home market should allow BOTH approaches. Fiddle the paddle when you want, or push it over to full and touch a button to get a volumetric dose. But why not shoot for the stars and add programmable electronic pump-control too, so the machine could record what you did with the paddle, store it in one of your coffee profile memories, and then do it again by itself the next time at the touch of a button. Or at least allow a lower-pressure automatic pre-infusion to be programmed into a profile.
All of this to be demonstrated in three weeks at SCAA?! :-)
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2010, 7:42pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
boyscout Said:
But why not shoot for the stars and add programmable electronic pump-control too, so the machine could record what you did with the paddle, store it in one of your coffee profile memories, and then do it again by itself the next time at the touch of a button.
In my experience so far with the paddle, this level of automation would not work in the real world. No matter how exactly repeatable I think my dose (I grind by digital timer), grind, distribution and tamp are, there is always enough unpredictable variation that I need to control the paddle myself. Start with humidity and ambient temperature changes, and then go on to all the human and grinder variables, even if you think nothing has changed.
If a shot fully preinfuses in 8 seconds in the morning, it may take 12 seconds in the afternoon, and start to blonde in 24, 28 or 30 seconds. This level of automation is simply not consistent with top-quality espresso and won't be until the other variables are solved (if ever).
MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 5,462 Location: Vancouver, BC Expertise: Professional
Espresso: KvdW Speedster Grinder: Compak K10 WBC Vac Pot: A bit too many Drip: Clive Coffee Drip Stand Roaster: Hario Glass Retro Roaster
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2010, 11:00pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
boyscout Said:
The pressure profiling available in the GS/3 paddle version was interesting, but I absolutely was not going to give up the convenience of volumetric dosing for it so I opted not to buy a paddle version. A new machine to usurp the home market should allow BOTH approaches. Fiddle the paddle when you want, or push it over to full and touch a button to get a volumetric dose.
OT This is what Bill intended for the GS/3 from the get go for the paddle version. In fact, the prototype GS/3 with the paddle, shown at SCAA 2006 (or was it 2005?) had a functional paddle group that also had a functioning volumetric button system that worked in harmony with each other.
La Marzocco (not Bill afaik) chose not to go with the paddle group design Bill came up with. What is on the GS/3 is essentially Piero Bambi's work - vis a vis the paddle group at least. And this variant of the paddle leaves us with a volumetric panel that is non-operable. /OT
Posted Sun Mar 21, 2010, 3:59am Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
Thank you Mark for your thoughts on comparing Bill's machine to the Speedster. I am going to proceed with the Speedster but hope Bill's machine is revolutionary and extremely successful.
You stated, "La Marzocco (not Bill afaik) chose not to go with the paddle group design Bill came up with. What is on the GS/3 is essentially Piero Bambi's work - vis a vis the paddle group at least. And this variant of the paddle leaves us with a volumetric panel that is non-operable."
I would like to refer you to the Bill Crossland YouTube video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fokegqcAO4I ). I viewed this video many times before placing an order for my GS3 paddle. It was perceived by me that the only difference between the standard GS3 and the paddle was the paddle itself. This was my mistake because I did not clear this before ordering the machine. I must assume that this was pre-production models and Bill was under the impression that the production machines would incorporate the features as he designed. Another perception is that the video did not clearly record the entire progression of the presentation. However, I have been extremely pleased with my machine and the volumetric dosing would be a marvelous feature it has in no way limited my use. The machine has been flawless.
As stated I am a big Bill Crossland fan and it was La Marzocco's loss in my opinion.
Endo Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 804 Location: , location, location. Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: machine is < important than... Grinder: !
Posted Sun Mar 21, 2010, 5:45am Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
Did you guys really think your GS/3s and Speedsters would be the last machine you owned? :-)
There are only 3 variables in espresso: Temperature , pressure and time. (I'm not counting grinder variables like grounds size and dose). For the longest time the only variable we have been able to play with is time.
Pressure has always been flat (except for the pre-infusion stage) and the Italians seem to have been struggling for years to make a simple flat temperature profile using archaic methods like increasing thermal mass through use of expensive, heavy materials.
Well it's time to ditch the E-61 and brass boilers and wake up and smell the espresso......who says flat is best? Why are we working so hard to achieve it? After all, the thing that makes the machines so expensive is the silly use of expensive copper based materials in order to retain heat.
With the price of materials going up and the price of electronics going down, it seems quite obvious what we are talking about here:
Remove the E-61 head.....no wait.....remove the entire head. Remove the brass boilers....(the specific heat of water is many times that of brass anyway so why not use it?). And just have a big, cheap, well insulated thermoplastic boiler holding perfectly micro-controlled water. (Perhaps two boilers in series with the smaller final stage giving the quicker controlled thermal and pressure response?) Push it through the grounds using simple microcontrolled variable speed motor. And voila....
The real challenge is not the engineeering, it's the marketing. You need to convince all the chrome Harley loving E-61 gang to change they're beloved polished 1960s hockey puck machines for essentially what looks like a big $3000 headless Nespresso.
Good luck Mr.Crossland! We're long due for a game changer!
boyscout Senior Member Joined: 29 Dec 2009 Posts: 404 Location: Toronto Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Sun Mar 21, 2010, 7:09am Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
MarshallF Said:
In my experience so far with the paddle, this level of automation would not work in the real world. No matter how exactly repeatable I think my dose (I grind by digital timer), grind, distribution and tamp are, there is always enough unpredictable variation that I need to control the paddle myself. Start with humidity and ambient temperature changes, and then go on to all the human and grinder variables, even if you think nothing has changed.
No doubt a skilled hand on the control will always provide the best result. Hopefully, I'll be able to buy a skilled hand as an option with the new machine.
But without it, will the next-best thing usually be a full-on flat-profile 8-9 bar extraction?
I understand that environmental conditions change things. However I'm surprised that an extraction with more-variable pressure, mimicking one that has worked before with the same coffee and preparation, won't often produce a better-than-flat-profile result even if somewhat-clumsily done by a machine that doesn't see or know what's happening (seeing and knowing will be in Version II of the machine).
I'm truly curious. If the greater value - not the only value, but the greater value - of controlling pressure is at the beginning of the shot rather than the end, then what is the risk of the machine getting it a bit wrong? If it makes the pre-infusion a bit short, isn't that still better than no pre-infusion? If it makes it a bit long... I admit I don't know... you get a few drops in the cup that may cool... does the taste of the shot get seriously hammered in that case, or just fall short of perfection?
On the other end of the shot, if an automated profile backs off too soon, you've left a bit of flavour in the puck, too bad. If it goes on too long, that's a Bad Thing, but maybe the operator can watch for that and be ready to hit a button to stop it.
I've learned that I am more-inclined to convenience than some geekers, and may be less-discriminating about what is a good cup too. For me, automated profiles sound like an improvement over an all-manual-profile-or-no-profile approach.
Not arguing Marshall, curious, and hope you'll fill in what I'm missing (if it doesn't require TOO many pages!)
billc Senior Member Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 83 Location: Seattle, Washington Expertise: Professional
Espresso: CC1 - GS - GS3 - GB5 Grinder: Baratza - Mazzer-Marzocco Drip: My own Creation
Posted Sun Mar 21, 2010, 10:49am Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
WOW - Thanks to all who have had kind words for me. I am truly humbled. Please forgive me for not joining in much for this discussion. I have 2 young kids and am working wildly on a project for another client (so I can pay the mortgage) and also on trying to get this prototype together.
For those who do not know me, I am a mechanical engineer by trade but have spent some time in the Marines, in the oil and gas industry, and in the aerospace industry. Then back in the late 90's I was introduced to La Marzocco. I was one of the luckiest guys around to get a job with them that lasted almost 10 years. It was truly one of the best jobs I have ever had and I really miss working for them. A little over a year ago I started on a project to create a home-espresso machine that was capable of some of the latest trends in the industry. Also I wanted to create something that was a value in terms of price point, and used less energy than most machines that are similar in capacity.
The way I use a machine at my home is to turn on and off the machine throughout the day (That is when I am not at Cafe Javasti). All machines do this and boilers heat up rather quickly. However, the time needed for the mass of metal to heat up usually was too long for me (30-60 minutes). In a commercial environment this is OK since the machines are left on 24-7.
Then I asked myself why was there so much mass on the group head of the current designs. The group head acts as a thermal mass once heated and helps keep the water temperature stable. Then I thought, if the mass was not there I would not have to heat it and I would not have to wait so long for the machine to heat up. Once I removed the mass I had another problem of controlling temperature. How I do this is pretty simple in theory but has proved to be somewhat challenging with software (mostly the mathematics). Once I was able to control temperature, and with the mass removed, I realized that I was able to vary the temperature of the water and it was noticed quickly at the coffee.
I have 3 designs currently for controlling this machine and have not yet decided which is the best in terms of price/value/durability. Here is the one method that I have applied for a patent. It involves the use of proportional valves. Proportional valves have the ability to control the flow rate of the water through them by varying the voltage applied to the coil. I use 2 of these valves. One for cold water and one for hot water (hot water is heated via a heat exchanger in the steam boiler). I mix the two streams right before the 3 way valve. Also at that point I measure the temperature. I am able to control the 2 valves via a microprocessor to achieve the proper temperature and pressure. Open both valves at 20% and you get one pressure Open both valves at 50% and you get another pressure Open the hot more than the cold and you get hotter water etc. I use a vibe pump to provide the pressure to the valves. This is because they are about 90% lower cost than the rotary pump and motor. I will comment more on the other features at a later time. I hope to have a website up and running to explain some of this stuff in more detail. This is a lofty goal looking at my to-do list.
Thanks for all of your support it have been very motivating to read your comments!
Posted Sun Mar 21, 2010, 11:25am Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
How exciting Bill, thank you for joining us here. I'll eagerly watch for any further posts by you. Myself personally I'm all for "game changing" but as long as its for valid reasons, which clearly you seem to be onto. All in all a very exciting project, I hope the consumer espresso machine concept is truly challenged and ultimately improved. The more control the Barista can be given all the better, hopefully your espresso machine will make it easier to get the best from a coffee.
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