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ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > ECM / Rocket...

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J_Premium
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 83
Location: USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Andreja Premium
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, SJ

Posted Thu Apr 8, 2010, 1:15pm Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

As per the flushing method. I found that based on all the research and information located here, the web and through test results: an 8 oz flush with a 30 sec wait worked best for pulls in the 200-202 range while a 6-7 oz flushed with a 30 sec wait worked best for temps of 198-200 range. BTW I've decided to put my Giotto up for grabs in the Buy/Sell Forum for those interested. Upgrade fever has set in. Cheers and I'm glad this thread has taken off!

vjhardcore
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Mar 2010
Posts: 95
Location: Toronto
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto EVOLUZIONE,...
Grinder: Anfim

Posted Mon Apr 12, 2010, 12:33pm Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

So Evoluzione has been working well - I like the noticibly quieter pump. The shots are alittle more consistant then my Vib Pump ECM Giotto. One minor issue I'm still working on. With my ECM - I'd lift lever slightly to pre infuse brew head. You could hear the water fill the head they pull your shot. Now when you lift lever its such a sweet spot to pre infuse before engaging th epump. What typically will happen is the pump will activate for a second before i disengage it. I don't think that that;s great for the pump on/off for a split second just to pre infuse each shot...I need to figure that sweet spot out better. I flush head everyday with blank filter / water. That makes a big difference as well - monthly clean up shouldn't be nearly as bad. Still using as a pour over till the move in June - More to come.

"I'm a man of simple tastes, easily satisfied by the best" Winston Churchill

boyscout
Senior Member

Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 404
Location: Toronto
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Mon Apr 12, 2010, 12:58pm
Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

vjhardcore Said:

So Evoluzione has been working well <snip>

Posted April 12, 2010 link

Mike, did you contact / hear back from Rocket re: insulating the boiler?

The steam boiler on my machine (not a Rocket) is factory-insulated, but only partially, maybe 60% of its circumferance. I THINK the un-insulated portion was left that way just for reasons of interior spacing and proximity to other parts, but I'm still curious whether there are arguments AGAINST insulating the steam boiler in these machines.

vjhardcore
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Mar 2010
Posts: 95
Location: Toronto
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto EVOLUZIONE,...
Grinder: Anfim

Posted Wed Apr 21, 2010, 6:46am Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

I'm going to bump this forward as I've spoken with Rocket and they don't really see a reason to insulate the boiler. However at this point they said they'd like to read some of our forums discussion on the topic before making any sort of 'suggestion' if even an unofficial suggestion eitherway.

"I'm a man of simple tastes, easily satisfied by the best" Winston Churchill

vaporeso
Senior Member

Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E - A

Posted Wed May 5, 2010, 9:02pm Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

Hi all, had posted this in questions and answers but now that I found the Giotto thread, here it goes. Just got my hands on an ECM Giotto. I knew this machine had not been properly cared for, so I got it expecting the worst. I ran it and everything seems to be ok. I don't really know much about this type of machine since it is the first one I have. Opening it up it's quite dirty, and looks like there's some hard water build up and a rust spot. Since I don't know much about it, I am posting some pictures in case there is anything that looks serious. I was going to try to get rid of the rust spot, and of course clean it as good as possible. I thought about removing the hard water but don't know if it's worth tackling right now. All thoughts and comments welcome. http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu100/vaporeso/photo.jpg http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu100/vaporeso/photo2.jpg http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu100/vaporeso/photo3.jpg http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu100/vaporeso/photo4.jpg

boyscout
Senior Member

Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 404
Location: Toronto
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Thu May 6, 2010, 5:29am
Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

vaporeso Said:

Just got my hands on an ECM Giotto. I knew this machine had not been properly cared for, so I got it expecting the worst.

Posted May 5, 2010 link

Nene, "everything works" is a good start!

I guess its obvious to you that the machine has/had at least one leaking problem to make it look like that, and stopping further leaking is important to prevent further damage. It's hard to deduce where the leak(s) is/are by just looking at photos of a cold machine.

The vaccum breaker and over-pressure valves at the top of your boiler are candidates. When your machine is heating up, the vacuum breaker is open to allow low-pressure vapor to escape while the boiler water heats up. As sufficient pressure begins to build inside the boiler, the valve should be forced closed, to retain the steam pressure. When your machine is cooling down, the valve opens again to relieve the vacuum inside the cooling boiler. The over-pressure valve does the obvious, releasing pressure if it exceeds safe levels.

Your valve tells of at least a life with very hard water, but may also tell of a leak there, a valve that sputters or oozes under pressure and drips water into the machine. The lack of a very solid trail of mineral deposits from the valve in your fourth photo down the side of the boiler suggests that this hasn't been VERY seriously leaking (and other places may have been leaking) but yours certainly looks like a candidate for failure if it hasn't already failed. The valves are not expensive, and usually not hard to replace.

So there's one idea. It does look, though, as if the machine has/had more than one source of leakage. Since everything is working you can clean it up, leave the case off, and spend some time cycling it on and off and carefully watching through the heating (especially) and cooling period for any signs of moisture through the heat-up and cool-down processes. Then put some hard-tamped coffee in the portafilter and pull shots through it, again watching for leaks.

"Clean it up" almost certainly includes a thorough de-scaling of the boiler. The thread at the following link may help you get started with that.

Click Here (www.home-barista.com)

EDIT: Just had another look at your photos, and they seem to suggest that PART of the damage may have been caused by the previous owner putting wet cups on top of the machine... there are signs of water damage that are above obvious leak points. Don't be lulled by that theory, there are also signs of leakage inside, but it may not be as bad as it looks.

Hope this helps.

vjhardcore
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Mar 2010
Posts: 95
Location: Toronto
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto EVOLUZIONE,...
Grinder: Anfim

Posted Thu May 6, 2010, 12:15pm Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

Ouch - your new buy definatily needs some TLC. As mentioned it shouldn't be too hard to replace most of the parts that need replacing. Show us the outside of the machine. Hopefully that's in much better shape. What kind of a deal are we talking about here? Must have been pretty good if you picked it up still knowing its issues or you, like all of us on this thread know the machines potential.

"I'm a man of simple tastes, easily satisfied by the best" Winston Churchill

vaporeso
Senior Member

Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E - A

Posted Thu May 6, 2010, 12:46pm Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

Hey Boyscout, thanks so much for all the feedback. You're dead on about the leak. Vacuum breaker spits as soon as it hits 1 bar, then stops. When I got the machine it was set to higher preassure so it was spitting more fiercely. I hope that's something that will be fixed with a simple valve replacement. I have a bigger problem though. After descaling following the instructions, I see some shiny particles in the water. I've been running water through it for a while now and I still get them. And the water smells bad. Reminds me if when boiler went bad in the old Faemas, but hoping that's not the case. Any ideas? UPDATE: The shiny specs seem to be particles of the nickel coating from the inside of the boiler. Will do another descale. Also bought a new safety and vacuum valve, since one is leaking and the other looks quite horrible and full of hard water, making me think it went off more than once.

vaporeso
Senior Member

Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E - A

Posted Wed May 12, 2010, 10:23pm Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

Hey VJ, the price tag was $600. Don't know if it was a good deal, but I am defintely enjoying the restoring process. The poor thing had never been cleaned at all. I replaced vacuum and safety valves, did major cleaning and am fully operational. Here are some pictures of before and after cleaning. I will take a pic of the outs¡de for you VJ to show you the condition. click here click here click here click here click here Now, as I wait for the bottomless PF to arrive to perfect the shot, I have 2 questions. 1- Do I need a kit to plumb in? Previous owner told me it was hooked up to a water source directly, and right now I have that hose in my water reservoir. However, given previous owner's track record, I don't know if I need a kit or if I can go straight to the water line. Water in my place is filtered at the source. 2- What is a recommended steam tip for small amounts of milk? I saw the 2 hole from Chris and I read about other 4 holes. Any input appreciated. I've wanted this machine for a while, these are exciting days. Thanks to all for the feedback.

vjhardcore
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Mar 2010
Posts: 95
Location: Toronto
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto EVOLUZIONE,...
Grinder: Anfim

Posted Thu May 13, 2010, 8:20am Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group

I think $600's a good price. Its a $1200-1500 machine any day of the week in my opinion once its cleaned up and functioning perfectly. I can't pull the pictures from work here so I'll take alook at home. That machine wouldn't normailly be plumbed in so he had to have put some sort of kit on it to make it work as such. We'd have to see where /how hose hooks up to see whats been done. I love the idea of plumbing it in and if its not right now there are kits available. As for your steam wand question - sorry I'm not a froth fan. 6 years with my ECM Giotto and about 2 months with my Giotto Evoluzione I have still to froth milk with the wand?! ha Keep the pics coming of your set up when its completed

"I'm a man of simple tastes, easily satisfied by the best" Winston Churchill

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