Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011, 11:18pm Subject: Re: Rocket Espresso Giotto Evoluzione
WBW Said:
I would like to get some feedback from Rocket Giotto/ Cellini Evoluzione owners as I am seriously thinking about buying this machine in the next few months.
I've had my Evoluzione for a month. It's an outstanding combination of performance, quality and style. The fit and finish is impressive. The smallish drip tray is no big deal with the Evo. You can connect the tray to a drain so the size isn't an issue. I have mine draining to a container under the counter.
I recommend talking with a vendor to learn about the machine first hand. There are several vendors in Canada. The fact you don't see much discussion on the Rocket's is probably a plus. People buy the machines and they just work. No fuss or hassle.
I would like to get some feedback from Rocket Giotto/ Cellini Evoluzione owners as I am seriously thinking about buying this machine in the next few months.
- how long have you had your machine and are you still happy with it? - any problems that have been commonly reported with this machine? - anything frustrate you about this machine? (how about that tiny driptray?)
Hi, I've had a Cellini Evoluzione for a little over a year now so I can tell you what I know. First off, I am happy with it. It does make great coffee. The machine has been turned off less than 10 times (during descale, switching out my inline filter, and one vacation), I always have it running, so I dont know about warmup times and such. First complaint I have is the right pump guage vibrates and makes it hard. It didnt do this until I plumbed the machine in, and does it regardless now. Two descales ago, I had the left boiler pressure guage showing the pressure in the tank going up to 1.2 bars, but still dropping to .9, when it was always 1.1 / .9, so I never figured out what the deal there is. But with both these issues, the performance and coffee hasn't changed, so I decided it wasnt worth sending it in to get looked at.
Only other issue I had was the noise it made after the first time I popped the hood. My solution has been to leave one screw out, which made the noise go away (to get the last screw in, I have to push the sides of the machine in a little, which may be touching something. Also wrapped the entire upper tray in a layer of clear tape, as the vibrations from the machine caused the cups I keep up there to scratch up the chrome pretty badly.
That's really it, I have no other complaints. The drip tray is fine if you plumb in the hose and run it to the sink. My machine is not really a variable in my coffee making process, instead, how I roast my coffee and the grinder are what add variables to the end result.
I really dont know why exactly, but I am kind of wishing I could trade it in and get a DB like the Alex Duetto II or VBM DoubleDomo. I suppose it's because when I try to brew & steam at the same time, it doesn't go so well as the steam pressure tends to drop significantly. I've read that a bigger boiler is needed for proper brew&steaming at the same time on a HX, and I'd agree based on my experiences, although it's doable. For my morning latte, I find myself brewing first, waiting just a tad for the pressure to regain after brewing, then steaming after. End result is a godly latte and sometimes decent latte art, so I can't complain really.
I really dont know why exactly, but I am kind of wishing I could trade it in and get a DB like the Alex Duetto II or VBM DoubleDomo. I suppose it's because when I try to brew & steam at the same time, it doesn't go so well as the steam pressure tends to drop significantly. I've read that a bigger boiler is needed for proper brew&steaming at the same time on a HX, and I'd agree based on my experiences, although it's doable. For my morning latte, I find myself brewing first, waiting just a tad for the pressure to regain after brewing, then steaming after. End result is a godly latte and sometimes decent latte art, so I can't complain really.
An HX machine (including the Rocket) is designed to brew and steam simultaneously. Brewing and steaming are on different water circuits. So, brewing doesn't impact steam pressure. The biggest limitation is the barista. Most people can only do one thing at a time, regardless if it's an HX or double boiler machine. Most people steam first, then brew to get the best flavor out of the shot. But, you can do both at the same time if you're coordinated.
In my experience, the Rocket has tons of steaming power. I've made 6 lattes in a row without the machine needing any noticeable recovery time. If you want more steaming, increase the boiler pressure to 1.1 bar. The boiler is set at 1.0 bar from the factory and some people want more steaming capability. Increasing the boiler to 1.1 bar should provide all of the steam power you need.
My boiler is factory set to 1.1 (though it goes up to just a little past 1.2 bars since two descales ago). If the gauge is broken, then this is a whole different story. Feels to me like when brewing, it's pulling in enough cold water from the line that it drops the temperatures in the boiler enough to reduce the pressure significantly. Starting the brewing while steaming is different from starting to steam while brewing, but both result in steam pressure issues (except the first ends up timing the HX flush differently). If I brew first and start steaming immediately after the shot, my steam pressure will drop to .5 before I'm done steaming if I don't wait 10-15 seconds for the boiler pressure to get back past 1 bar, alot of it's just a matter of when the heater kicks in.
That's how my Cellini is. I have no problem skill-wise of brewing & steaming at the same time, it's very easy for me and every now and then I do for a change of pace, but the milk comes out better when I don't have the pressure dropping to that .5 bar range. If I had a faster grinder, like the K30, I'd easily be able to outrun the machine prepping multiple drinks. In all my experience so far, brewing first, waiting a short bit for the boiler to recover, then steaming has produced my best tasting lattes (which is just what I drink in the morning, I drink straight shots in the afternoon and at night). That's my milage, I'm sure other's will vary.
I would like to get some feedback from Rocket Giotto/ Cellini Evoluzione owners as I am seriously thinking about buying this machine in the next few months.
- how long have you had your machine and are you still happy with it? - any problems that have been commonly reported with this machine? - anything frustrate you about this machine? (how about that tiny driptray?)
I have noticed that some of the people who posted in this and other rocket-related threads have moved on to other machines....why?
PS: Is this the thread that most closely resembles a Rocket Evoluzione owner's thread? Not too many discussion topics on CG about it, and this discussion topic spends about 90% of the time arguing about PIDs on HX machines....kind of makes this not the most useful thread for potential rocket buyers / owners, but what can you do....
PPS: I am trying to delay / avoid starting one of those "what machine should I buy" threads...hence for now I am trying to focus on you, the experienced Rocket users, instead of my wants / needs....
I purchased my Rocket Giotto Evoluzione in January (2011) and am very happy with it. The build quality (inside and out) is outstanding. There have been no problems and no frustrations. I've posted pictures and details of my plumbed-in installation:
Just decided to do a steam & brew out of curiosity, since it's been awhile. Ground and tamped my coffee, did my flush, locked in, purged the steam wand, started steaming (was above 1 bar on pressure), after a fixed time I flip the brew lever, and boom, was at about .5 bars the rest of the steaming. Tasted just fine, but the swirl is much weaker and just takes longer. Just flushing the grouphead affects steam pressure initially, but there isn't time to sit around and wait when you need to draw your shot at the right time in the rebound.
The reason I dont like hitting that low of a pressure while steaming, despite it coming out just fine, was the manual stated not to steam below .5 bars because it risks sucking milk into the boiler, or something along those lines (dont have it handy atm). Maybe it matters that the machine is drawing cold water from my water line, and not from the water tank that's would have the water warming up from indirect heating.
It is what it is, steaming & brewing at the same time is not a big deal to me, being able to do one immediately after the other without any kind of temperature surfing is, so it's all good.
Just curious - did you drill a hole in your counter? How did you route the tubing?
This steam pressure thing described by Necrosis isn't exactly what I wanted to hear....can't steam and brew at the same time? That doesn't sound quite up to what the Rocket people would advertise I'm sure.
There is currently a thread on home-barista.com about pressure dropping during steaming: Click Here (www.home-barista.com)
Not exactly good press, either.
What is the story on descaling? When I was asking about the Rocket at espressotec (the local dealer in Vancouver), they said you "can't" descale it, but thankfully we don't have to worry about that in Vancouver due to our soft water (so they said).
In theory I figure there should be no actual difference between a Cellini vs. a Giotto other than styling - is there any differences that have been found out in real life?
Just curious - did you drill a hole in your counter? How did you route the tubing?
This steam pressure thing described by Necrosis isn't exactly what I wanted to hear....can't steam and brew at the same time? That doesn't sound quite up to what the Rocket people would advertise I'm sure.
There is currently a thread on home-barista.com about pressure dropping during steaming: Click Here (www.home-barista.com)
Not exactly good press, either.
What is the story on descaling? When I was asking about the Rocket at espressotec (the local dealer in Vancouver), they said you "can't" descale it, but thankfully we don't have to worry about that in Vancouver due to our soft water (so they said).
In theory I figure there should be no actual difference between a Cellini vs. a Giotto other than styling - is there any differences that have been found out in real life?
I brew and steam at the same time with absolutely no problem. Starting at 1.1 bars, the boiler pressure drops to about 0.70 bars during steaming and is totally unaffected by brewing at the same time. It takes about 35-40 seconds to steam 6.0 oz of milk. Rebound time for the boiler pressure to return to 1.1 bars is about 25 seconds.
I did drill a hole in the back of the counter. The hole is just above the cabinet where I have a water jug. The tubing runs from the bottom of the machine, out the back and down the hole to the jug. You can barely see the hole since it's near the back of the machine.
You have to understand the operation of an HX machine to put the pressure comments in perspective. Some pressure loss while steaming or brewing is normal. There is plenty of power for steaming. The machine recovers quickly. I recently made 6 milk drinks in a row with absolutely no problem.
If you want even more steaming power, you can easily increase boiler pressure. The factory setting of 1.0 bar is set to balance steaming and brewing, based on the factory's recommendations. Some people want more steaming, so that's why Rocket made it easy to adjust the pressure stat.
This machine is more than capable of brewing and steaming simultaneously if you want. Most people do it in series, but that's personal choice.
I'd recommend going to a dealer and getting personal experience with the machine. Compare performance, build quality and features of the Rocket against other machines. That way, you can make an informed decision about the Rocket.
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