Friendly Senior Member Joined: 20 Dec 2010 Posts: 126 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Thu Dec 30, 2010, 8:57pm Subject: the age old question...
...which is, what espresso maker should I buy? now I'm a noob. just bought a Chemex...an AeroPress and about to pull the plug on a Vario and a couple french presses, but, what 'espresso' my $20 Salton would produce, pleased me for years. to think what I've been missing out on all this time is beginning to drive me nuts. I want to try a real espresso! budget is up to about $1500...after watching a video for the Bezzera Medea E61 in action and looking up their price range, I've accepted that as what I should expect to spend if I want something I can learn on and grow into. I understand that a lever machine isn't best for a new guy, which is okay, but I'm not afraid to be part of the making of my cup...I would stand there for the 30 seconds it took for my Salton to brew, so I'm willing to get my hands dirty. what say have you masters of the cup?
please note, I'm not an engineer or a scientist...while the idea of tinkering intriques me, I'm slow to grasp, clumsy and cumbersome when it comes to anything mechanical or hands on (except for computers...go figure), so that won't be a priority or consideration when I make my purchase. if it can be tweaked...I'll just pay someone who knows what they're doing at a later date. :-)
IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,464 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010, 12:22am Subject: Re: the age old question...
Cameron, most here refer to a "lever machine' as an actual manual lever, or spring assisted lever like my Olympia Cremina, La Pavoni Euro, etc. The little levers you flip up to initiate the start of an espresso brewing cycle are no different than just pushing a button...just a different, more "old school' way to design it. I love the little lever thingies.
What you are referring to (I believe) is the HX (heat exchanger) type machine, with an E61 style group. There are probably 20 such different machines from several different manufacturers.
It's a wonderful system, and the machine itself has no real learning curve. It's the PREPARATION of the shot...adjusting the grind properly, distribution of the grind evenly into the basket/PF, proper tamping/leveling.
A reasonably dedicate and patient person can be pulling excellent shots in days. I'd recommend a BOTTOMLESS PF, which gives you visual confirmation of pour technique...squirts being the main visual.
When you say "pull the plug' on the Vario, hopefully you meant to so "go for" the Vario. It is, IMO the best overall value in home espresso grinders, the bunos being you can do ALL grinds with great success, not just espresso.
Friendly Senior Member Joined: 20 Dec 2010 Posts: 126 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010, 8:23am Subject: Re: the age old question...
I have lingo to learn...I'll eventually get up to speed and know to call a lever machine a 'manual lever' or 'spring assisted lever'. ;-) to help me out in the vein, can you tell me what prosumer model's are semi-automatics and automatics, since I already know some of that makes for the manual lever.
I don't know anything about the different styles and variations of groupheads etc, hence why I'm asking for some help to determine what machine would suit me best in my budget range. my ability to understand mechanical schematics or engineering information on the different systems is where I'm going to suffer, hence whatever I am recommended, the why's would be appreciated in laymen terms. I'd just like something that is easy to keep clean, is known to produce excellent espresso and is something I can grow into as my ability to pour a shot gets better.
I love the styles of the Elektra's and the La Pavoni's...but from everything I've read on here and HB is giving me the impression that they're not a good place for new one's to start with. if that's misleading, please do feel free to educate me! actually...I'm new here...about a week, so I haven't seen any guides that talk about the different systems out there for brewing espresso. is there a guide, so to speak, that will help me figure out what appeals to me the most? speaking of the manual lever systems...I love their style. they're gorgeous! the Vario, in comparison, leaves something to be desired. I haven't seen or read anything talking about the merit's of the matching Elektra/Pavoni (granted, Pavoni's aren't as pretty as the Elektra) grinders. are they that bad, or are they just charging to much for what they are?
with each of the different espresso brewing systems, surely there has come to be an accepted norm for what has proven itself to be the best 'bang for buck' for each of those systems? whatever those machines are, whether it be by the style of grouphead (if that's the a major factor?) or via price point, please recommend them up to about $2000, please.
forgive all the questions in one post. for those that tackle this. thank you! :-D
JonathanStarr Senior Member Joined: 6 Nov 2007 Posts: 85 Location: Columbus, OH Expertise: Professional
Espresso: LaMarzocco Strada MP 2 group Grinder: Mazzer Major Elec. Vac Pot: Yama StoveTop & Tabletop... Drip: V60, Woodneck, Melitta,... Roaster: Multiple Behmor roasters,...
Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010, 10:44am Subject: Re: the age old question...
First off. Welcome to the site!
This site has so many knowledgeable resources for the aspiring spro enthusiast. You're definitely in the right place.
I would highly recommend HX machines for beginners. Personally, my first espresso setup was a Rancilio silvia and a Mazzer mini. I very quickly upgraded to a Quickmill Anita HX which i purchased from RobertJason (imawriter). (post above) Super knowledgeable dude, He actually helped me greatly in learning a ton about coffee & espresso preparation as well as roasting. And at the time I was a complete stranger in a new city.
HX's are great machines that are super easy to use and will last you for years if you take care of them. There are plenty of reviews on this machine here on CG as well as Home-Barista and many other sites. I'm sure there are plenty of E61 HX's that are great and i'm sure many folks here would recommend a thousand different things. I've only owned two HX's The Quickmill Anita and the Andreja. (pretty much the same machine just minor differences) Both produce a great shot and have enough steam pour to do a few milk drinks at a time if you're into that sorta thing. If i had to do it over again. I'd probably go straight to a HX instead of a single boiler (dual purpose) like the Silvia. Dont get me wrong, the silvia is an EXCEPTIONAL machine! very nice. And with a PID consistent tasting espresso is a breeze. However I tend to entertain frequently and prefered something I could pull a few latte's on a time as well as the occasional cappa in the morning for me.
If your budget supersedes ~$1900 for the machine alone, i'd look into a dual boiler PID. Personal preference. However for a ~$2000 budget a well cared for used HX paired with a vario is a GREAT setup. IMHO the Vario is the best all around grinder on the market. It has now become my dedicated alternative brewing grinder (v60, chemex, Kone, vacpot, press etc) but can hit ALL ranges in the grind spectrum and for the price and grind quality i think it takes best in show (in that grinder range)
You can find used HX's on this site as well as others. Just be cautious when buying. Purchasing a used machine can be a bit of a gamble if you don't know the full history and maintenance of the previous ownership. In any case, if well maintained, a HX will last you for many years to come and IMO is a great place to start. It will not disappoint.
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010, 10:52am Subject: Re: the age old question...
Friendly Said:
I have lingo to learn...I'll eventually get up to speed and know to call a lever machine a 'manual lever' or 'spring assisted lever'. ;-) to help me out in the vein, can you tell me what prosumer model's are semi-automatics and automatics, since I already know some of that makes for the manual lever.
ONE way to classify espresso machines is by their method/mechanism/capabilities for producing the shot.
-- Manual machines do not have a pump. They rely on the operator to force the water through the puck by use of a lever -- like the Elektra Micro Casa a Leva, the La Pavoni Europicola, or the Olympia Cremina. These are all manual lever machines -- the operator lifts the lever up and pulls it down, pushing the water through the puck. There are also spring-operated lever machines, like the Bezzera B2006AL, or the Rancilio Class 6 LE models, in which the lever is controlled by a spring -- the operator pulls the lever down, and then a spring draws the lever back to the "up" position, moving the piston and forcing the water through the puck.
-- Semi-automatic machines have a pump to force the water through the puck, but the operator turns the pump on-and-off. Examples would include the machines like Gaggia Classic, the Faema Legend (the original E61 machine, or the Izzo Alex Duetto II -- which are, respectively, an SDBU, an HX, and a DB machine -- all in semi-automatic formats.
-- Full-automatic machines, also known as volumetric dosing machines, have a pump to force the water through the puck, like a semi-auto, but after a certain volume of water is dispensed (programed by the operator), the pump will shut itself off automatically. HOWEVER, the pump can also be shut off manually, just as with a semi-automatic. Examples would include the Bezzera BZ07sde, the Elektra Sixties T1, and the La Marzocco Linea AV models. Each of these , by the way, is also produced as a semi-automatic -- the Bezzera BZ07spm, the Elektra Sixties A3 (now discontinued, although plenty of other semi-autos are still made by Elektra), and the La Marzocco Linea EE models.
THEN you can classify machines by their boiler type:
-- Open boiler machines are relatively rare, and date back many decades. These can heat the water for espresso, but cannot build up any pressure to steam milk. To the best of my knowledge, this are all manual lever machines, and include machines like the Arrarex Caravel and the La Peppina.
-- Single Boiler Dual Use (SBDU) machines are the most popular machines for home use. These have one boiler and two thermostats; the boiler will either heat the water within to brewing temperature or to steaming temperature. The operator must wait for the boiler to move up/move down before continuing, i.e.: the machine can only brew or it can steam milk -- one or the other -- at a time.
-- Heat Exchanger (HX) machines also have one boiler, but it is permanently set to steaming temperature. Cool water, either from a built-in reservoir ("tank") or from a water line ("plumbed-in" or "direct connect"), is then flash heated to brew temp via the use of a heat exchanger.
-- Double Boiler (DB) machines have two boilers, one for heating the brewing water, the other for making steam.
ALSO, machines can be classified by their components, if you will, and their target market.
-- Consumer machines are just that, designed for home use by the consumer.
-- Professional (or commercial) machines are designed for high-volume use in busy cafés, restaurants, etc. They use more robust parts than consumer models, able to withstand their heavy, constant usage.
-- "Prosumer" machines fill in the gap; they are actually low-volume commercial machines that can also by used in a home environment.
/ / / / / / /
So you can have a commercial lever machine, or a consumer lever machine; a full-automatic HX prosumer model, as well as a full-auto HX commercial model, and so on and so on and so on . . . .
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010, 11:21am Subject: Re: the age old question...
Jason, excellent thumb nail sketch of the different machines, that should be posted in the FAQ section and everyone should be made to read it before they can join the talk here!
Needless to say, Jason +1
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Friendly Senior Member Joined: 20 Dec 2010 Posts: 126 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010, 12:17pm Subject: Re: the age old question...
well, I know for sure a double boiler machine is in my future, probably immediate future.
regarding the manual lever machines, I'm going to take it that that's where the phrase, 'learning to pull the shot' comes from being how quickly the water moves through the puck is dependent on how much energy you exercise when pull...so you can pull to slow, to soon etc etc etc. and regarding the spring assisted lever's, they remove that piece of the puzzle by having a spring that's strung so it pulls a shot at the right speed (grind dependent, of course)?
that would lead me to the question...are their double boiler manual lever/spring assisted to consider? and regarding the semi and the auto machines, what are double boiler model's to consider? these are all within a budget of about $1000 - 2000.
and this leads me to a question regarding all the different styles, regardless of boiler types. are there machines out there that give you the option to manually pull a shot, semi-automatically and automatically make a shot? a hybrid of every sorts, so to speak? just curious is all... ;-)
and to those that took on my wall of text, thank you! Jason, your explanation in laymen terms was amazing. I'm thinking once I can call myself an aficionado I'll use it to reassure new one's that it's not nearly as scary as they think it is! :-D
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010, 1:11pm Subject: Re: the age old question...
Friendly Said:
well, I know for sure a double boiler machine is in my future, probably immediate future.
regarding the manual lever machines, I'm going to take it that that's where the phrase, 'learning to pull the shot' comes from being how quickly the water moves through the puck is dependent on how much energy you exercise when pull...so you can pull to slow, to soon etc etc etc. and regarding the spring assisted lever's, they remove that piece of the puzzle by having a spring that's strung so it pulls a shot at the right speed (grind dependent, of course)?
that would lead me to the question...are their double boiler manual lever/spring assisted to consider? and regarding the semi and the auto machines, what are double boiler model's to consider? these are all within a budget of about $1000 - 2000.
For the most part, DB machines start at the top of your price range but you can get a VERY NICE HX machine in that range. One is not better than the other, it is personal preference as to which way to go.
Friendly Said:
and this leads me to a question regarding all the different styles, regardless of boiler types. are there machines out there that give you the option to manually pull a shot, semi-automatically and automatically make a shot? a hybrid of every sorts, so to speak? just curious is all... ;-)
An Automatic can pull both dosed shots and manually stopped shots (semi auto) but a manual lever machine is strictly manual and can only be operated manually.
Friendly Said:
and to those that took on my wall of text, thank you! Jason, your explanation in laymen terms was amazing. I'm thinking once I can call myself an aficionado I'll use it to reassure new one's that it's not nearly as scary as they think it is! :-D
No, seriously -- why? What thought processes led you to this decision?
Friendly Said:
regarding the manual lever machines, I'm going to take it that that's where the phrase, 'learning to pull the shot' comes from being how quickly the water moves through the puck is dependent on how much energy you exercise when pull...so you can pull to slow, to soon etc etc etc. and regarding the spring assisted lever's, they remove that piece of the puzzle by having a spring that's strung so it pulls a shot at the right speed (grind dependent, of course)?
Yes, the spring eliminates the variable of one individual's strong pull versus another individual's weaker pull, but how long you pre-infuse, etc., etc. are all variables that the operator can (and does/should) control.
Friendly Said:
that would lead me to the question...are their double boiler manual lever/spring assisted to consider?
Do not misunderstand the question. DB's are fine machines. So, too, are HX's and SBDU's, for that matter. Each class of machines is perfectly capable of producing excellent shots of espresso. Each class of machine has its advantages and its disadvantages. There is no X is automatically better than Y. There is also no one site fits all answer (as in, "this is THE best ________"). The best machine for you may not be the best machine for me or _________ or ______________.
What I will tell you is that two boilers equals a higher price tag, all else being equal.
The least expensive DB machine I can think of is the Vibiemme Domobar Junior DB; it is a semi-auto pourover for $1,469.00. The La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II is a full-auto pourover for $1,949.00. The Izzo Alex Duetto II is a semi-auto that can be easily switched from pourover to plumbed-in and back again, and is $2,295.00.
Friendly Said:
and this leads me to a question regarding all the different styles, regardless of boiler types. are there machines out there that give you the option to manually pull a shot, semi-automatically and automatically make a shot? a hybrid of every sorts, so to speak?
EVERY machine -- except for a super-automatic -- lets YOU control the shot. A manual lever machine is the only type that lets the operator literally "pull" the shot. Both a semi-auto and a full-auto let you start and stop the shot; a full-auto gives the operator the option of letting the machine stop the shot volumetrically.
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