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Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Leave on at all...  
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moreshots
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 228
Location: west of Chicago
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Cimbali DT1//Jura Z5
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Pharos
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: Made my own 2KG roaster
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 4:11am
Subject: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

I was wondering if there advantages / disadvantages to leaving the machine on at all times to reduce cycling time or cycling it all the time?

Thanks Bill
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wbaguhn
Senior Member
wbaguhn
Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 980
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Ponte Vecchio Lusso
Grinder: Cunill Tranquilo, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Cory DR
Drip: Vietnamese gadget, AeroPress
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 5:41am
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

Advantages:
Machine is always ready
Keeps area around machine warm

Disadvantages:
Takes more power
Keeps area around machine warm
Some machines not designed to be always on need to be powered off to refill
Some machines not designed to be always on can overheat if left on too long
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,460
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 5:49am
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

moreshots Said:

I was wondering if there advantages / disadvantages to leaving the machine on at all times to reduce cycling time or cycling it all the time?

Thanks Bill

Posted May 16, 2011 link

You are better off using a timer, if the machine being available morning and evening is an issue. leaving it on all the time reduces the life of the machine/specific components and it's never a good idea to have an espresso machine on when your not around.
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moreshots
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 228
Location: west of Chicago
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Cimbali DT1//Jura Z5
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Pharos
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: Made my own 2KG roaster
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 7:06am
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

Understand its LaMarzocco GS3 and I will most likely be cycling it now?
Thanks
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 7:42am
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

DavecUK Said:

You are better off using a timer, if the machine being available morning and evening is an issue. leaving it on all the time reduces the life of the machine/specific components and it's never a good idea to have an espresso machine on when your not around.

Posted May 16, 2011 link

There are two sides to this argument: Yes - leaving the machine ON causes the group gasket to dry out so that it may need replacing more than annually (I replaced mine only once, after 18 months).  Other rubber items such as boiler seals will not be affected because they stay wet.  

Also, pressurestat-controlled machines will wear out the less robust pressurestat types over time with extended cycling.  Of course the GS3 is controlled by PID so there is no mechanical pressure device to wear out this way.  

On the other hand, cycling a machine to heat up and cool off repeatdly on a timer will cause a vacuum breaker valve to get deposits and eventually start sticking and hissing even with extremely clean water because the nature of that sealing device includes evaporating mist, water and steam repeatedly from a small area.  

As already mentioned, one downside to leaving it on 24/7 includes some extra electrical consumption....but if you have it turn on a second time in the evening for a few hours then electricty is almost a wash.  Most calculations I've seen show the break even point between 3 and 5 hours of idle time for a machine with commercial-sized boiler(s).

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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__________
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 923
Location: .
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Machine now fixed ;o)
Grinder: None
Vac Pot: None
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 10:38am
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

Sadly, irrespective of the size of the machine, there is never a break even point where it uses the same amount of power to leave a machine on 24/7 rather than switching it on and off, unless someone can change the laws of thermodynamics (and make a great deal of money as a result ;o))

It always uses more electricity to leave a machine on 24/7.

What is true is that there is a point where it becomes more marginal, and calculations cannot take into account the convenience factor.

Also, if your power company provides power at different prices at different times of the day (as is available here in the UK) the cost calculation may be skewed, and given some patterns of use it could then be cheaper to leave it on 24/7.  

Personally, I would never leave a machine on 24/7 if it is not plumbed (both in and out) and relies on a cheap pressurestat or mechanical thermostat to control it, despite secondary safety devices which virtually all have. I've owned that sort of machine in the past, and never did so.  

I'm more comfortable with a plumbed in/out machine with all electronic control, and in fact do leave mine on unless I'm away for a few days.  I drop it down it to its standby temperature though, as it takes then only a few minutes and a couple of flushes to get back up to speed. I do that purely for convenience.

It doesn't have a conventional vacuum breaker to get fouled up, so I'd be equally happy with a timer, but just never bothered.
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 10:59am
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

__________ Said:

Sadly, irrespective of the size of the machine, there is never a break even point where it uses the same amount of power to leave a machine on 24/7 rather than switching it on and off, unless someone can change the laws of thermodynamics (and make a great deal of money as a result ;o)).

Posted May 16, 2011 link

Perhaps you have not taken into account that during warm-up from a cold start the machine's heating elements will cycle longer and with greater frequency until the machine is fully heated and running in steady state?  In short, it takes less energy to keep the machine running steady than it does to heat up from a cold start.  

That is the calculation for break-even on warmup.  measurements on my former machine (Wega Lyra) had break even after 3 hours....mening that if the machine was to be OFF for less than 3 hours after cooling down then I was spending extra money to heat it back up.

EDIT - striken text shows my errant assertion.  It does indeed take less energy to run idle than to heat up a machine, but that may not make up for the energy NOT used while a machine is OFF.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,931
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 11:41am
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

Rob, what about machines that use COMMERCIAL Pstats?

I have no issue with my machine on 24/7 with it's commercial parts. YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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JtothaR
Senior Member
JtothaR
Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 748
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: NS Appia, Oscar
Grinder: K10, Lusso, GM 875
Drip: Pour-Over, FP, Toddy
Roaster: Agapao, Metropolis, CC
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 11:49am
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

calblacksmith Said:

Rob, what about machines that use COMMERCIAL Pstats?

I have no issue with my machine on 24/7 with it's commercial parts. YMMV!

Posted May 16, 2011 link

+1

My old, all-metal, sirai is still clicking after over 15 years.

-James

 
Load and Lock.
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__________
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 923
Location: .
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Machine now fixed ;o)
Grinder: None
Vac Pot: None
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Mon May 16, 2011, 12:22pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

JonR10 Said:

Perhaps you have not taken into account that during warm-up from a cold start the machine's heating elements will cycle longer and with greater frequency until the machine is fully heated and running in steady state?  In short, it takes less energy to keep the machine running steady than it does to heat up from a cold start.  

That is the calculation for break-even on warmup.  measurements on my former machine (Wega Lyra) had break even after 3 hours....mening that if the machine was to be OFF for less than 3 hours after cooling down then I was spending extra money to heat it back up.

Posted May 16, 2011 link

I assure you that your measurements are wrong. They contradict the (second if I recall correctly) law of thermodynamics. In laymans terms, you only "pay" for the heat that you lose.  You lose more heat to the environment when a machine is hot than when it is cooler.Your machine is never in "steady state". It is always losing heat to the outside.

This has been argued many times.
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