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Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Leave on at all...  
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,393
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

gime2much Said:

The boiler is 40 times as large as most espresso machines. The energy draw is several times as heavy. Mine comes to temperature in less than 10 minutes. It's the common hot water heater. Can we get a show of hands from those who use a timer or shut theirs off during non-use times?

  If you shut down an espresso machine when not in use but not the water heater isn't like the fat lady eating cream filled donuts while drinking a diet coke?

Posted May 22, 2011 link

Perhaps this attitude is reflected in the fact that; *The average north American has twice the carbon footprint of someone in the UK and 5 x the world average.  As for your specific example of the water heater, that's just wasteful of energy because it does use more to keep it on an hot all the time. In the UK, it's almost universal for hot water to either be drawn through a high efficiency combination boiler and heated on demand. Or a well insulated water tank heated once in the morning and once more in the evening (in the case of our house with gas central heating, for 20 minutes each time). For those new to the discussion, I repeat my earlier comments, leaving a prosumer espresso machine on all the time even if not at home, or when asleep:
  • Uses more energy
  • Machine develops more faults
  • Increases the risk of an accident, fire etc..

*Citation
Maggie L. Walser (Lead Author);Stephen C. Nodvin, Sidney Draggan (Topic Editor) "Carbon footprint". In: Encyclopedia of Earth. Eds. Cutler J. Cleveland (Washington, D.C.: Environmental Information Coalition, National Council for Science and the Environment). [First published in the Encyclopedia of Earth July 14, 2010; Last revised Date February 17, 2011[i]
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JonR10
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JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
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Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
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Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 6:26pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

It seems that the condescending tones have not let up from the early part of this thread.  Too bad, because you have so very much to offer and this detracts from it.  In fact, because of your work, Dave, I just this morning ordered some polyester batting to use for insulating my new machine's boiler.  Thank you for pioneering that.  


You gents had convinced me that I was wrong, and so I made an apology when I didn't find the data to back up my statement.  So much for the second law of thermodynamics, right? (Perhaps we could check the first law instead....)


If it helps, point-of-use water heating is not yet widely offered in the states, and homes here are generally built with water heaters.  Mine came with 2 water heaters....they do not have timers but at least they are insulated.


As for my new espresso machine, the manufacturer's instructions on this one advise turning her off at night, so that's what I'm doing.  And as I indicated, I plan to insulate the boiler for further efficiency.  


We all have a long way to go before we reach the rapture, and there's no benefit from poking each other with sharp sticks.  If we open our minds and hearts then we can usually learn from each other.  In this case, some supporting links might have been very helpful to anyone reading who wanted to learn more about the science of our little debate, not to mention bringing a swift closure.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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Joel_B
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Joel_B
Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Posts: 1,823
Location: Pacific NW
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astra Mega II
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Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup
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Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 6:36pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

DavecUK Said:

Uses more energy
Machine develops more faults
Increases the risk of an accident, fire etc..

Posted May 22, 2011 link

I agree (certainly in my situation) leaving my machine on uses more energy. Based on what I've seen on my energy bill my espresso machine is nearly non detectable compared to my other usage.

I can only presume leaving the machine on can lead to higher maintenance costs but what is the increase?

Asi said in my earlier post, I'd suspect the risk to be low of incident. Can you tell us how many incidents are actually cause of someone solely leaving their machine on all day?  Are there any actual reported incidents?

Dave I honestly appreciate the spirit of your post. At the same time when I look at my energy usage, "carbon footprint", my risk of accidents, and costs of keeping my life at a steady level, my espresso doesn't even make the list.  You say "more" but can you actually quantify your statements?
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
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Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 7:39pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

Joel_B Said:

Regarding a timer this doesn't work for everyone as not everyone has the same schedule everyday.

Posted May 22, 2011 link

Inexpensive timers can schedule each day differently. The one I use is capable of that. For example, mine is:
Mon: on at 5 and off at noon, then back on at 4 and off at 11.
Tue: on at 5 and off at 9, then back on at 4 and off at 11
Wed: same as Mon
Thu: on at 5, off at 9, on at 12 and off at 11.
Fri: on at 5, off at 11
Sat & Sun: same as Fri.

Check it out here at Amazon.

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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JtothaR
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Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 7:40pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

DavecUK Said:

Perhaps this attitude is reflected in the fact that; *The average north American has twice the carbon footprint of someone in the UK and 5 x the world average.  

Posted May 22, 2011 link


I wonder if it has something to do with this little statistic.

United States: 3,794,101 Square Miles of land area

United Kingdom: 94,060 Square miles of land area

Lets not forget how distances traveled may effect carbon footprint. I'd say that 2x the carbon footprint per person is pretty reasonable when that person's land mass is over 40x as large.

As an aside, here's a photo of my insulated Faema boiler to make you chaps feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Congrats on the new Machine Jon. Welcome to the "Big Faema HX's club" ;-).

-James

JtothaR: 2011-04-02_01-22-56_993.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
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crayonshinchan
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crayonshinchan
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Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

DavecUK Said:

*The average north American has twice the carbon footprint of someone in the UK and 5 x the world average.

Posted May 22, 2011 link

How dare you call us North Americans on this site "average."  I prefer to be labeled as an "extremist."
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Joel_B
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Joel_B
Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Posts: 1,823
Location: Pacific NW
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astra Mega II
Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup
Drip: nope, french press
Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

dana_leighton Said:

Inexpensive timers can schedule each day differently.

Posted May 22, 2011 link

I'm probably a bit different than most; I should of explained a little more.  My Monday's aren't the same from week neither are my Tuesday's, Wednesday's, etc.  My Saturday's and Sunday's are the most constant, but I also pull shots all weekend long so I'd leave it on anyways. Yes, I could change the timer every week, but I'd just assume keep it on at this point.

Dana,thanks for the link though.  I'd need a different model, but I'd assume 220v could be had cheaply as well
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,393
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 7:54pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

Joel_B Said:

I agree (certainly in my situation) leaving my machine on uses more energy. Based on what I've seen on my energy bill my espresso machine is nearly non detectable compared to my other usage.

I can only presume leaving the machine on can lead to higher maintenance costs but what is the increase?

Asi said in my earlier post, I'd suspect the risk to be low of incident. Can you tell us how many incidents are actually cause of someone solely leaving their machine on all day?  Are there any actual reported incidents?

Dave I honestly appreciate the spirit of your post. At the same time when I look at my energy usage, "carbon footprint", my risk of accidents, and costs of keeping my life at a steady level, my espresso doesn't even make the list.  You say "more" but can you actually quantify your statements?

Posted May 22, 2011 link

The increase in energy usage is small, but the earlier point was to dispel the myth that it's more economical and that in some way espresso machines defy the laws of physics

I cannot tell you how many incidents were for espresso machines, or any other specific appliance for that matter, these statistics are not recorded in a form that is available to the public. Below are some incidents for coffee makers, some of which are espresso machines, the principle is the same though, whether it be coffee maker or espresso machine. The problem is even 1 preventable incident is too many. Sure the chance is small, but why take that chance all for the sake of switching it off when you are out, or asleep. In your life this risk may be acceptable and perhaps other people reading this will think the risk of leaving the machine on 24/7 is acceptable for the convenience it offers....but at least they see for/against arguments and can weigh the risks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-11302161
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/15772834/detail.html
Click Here (newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com)
http://www.bnl.gov/esh/shsd/PDF/FactSheet4.pdf
Click Here (www.msnbc.msn.com)
Click Here (charlotte.news14.com)
Click Here (www.bizjournals.com)
http://exactproductsinc.com/WordPress/?cat=33

In the UK official fire department stats do not specify the exact appliance, only category of appliance, but round 10% of fires in the Kitchen are related to electrical or water heating appliances, not cooking/cooking appliances which alone account for 20% of fires, figures from 2008/9. Remembering of course that these are incidents in which the fire service attended and are most likely to be those where the premises were unattended, or at night, when the fire took hold beyond what a person could put out themselves. Closer to home around 4 years ago my neighbours house caught fire whilst they were away at work. Luckily we saw the fire and called the fire brigade, who took action quickly enough to save the structure of the house. Firemen Climbed up onto the roof and hacked it open, then ran a hose in there for a while (few hundred gallons of water) to ensure no fire remained! Interior of house badly damaged. Seeing it certainly gave me pause for thought and made me reassess fire safety in our house.

DavecUK: fire2.JPG
(Click for larger image)
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JtothaR
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JtothaR
Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 683
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Faema D92/A1 Smart
Grinder: B VARIO, Krups Conic
Drip: Manual Pour-Over, Bodum...
Roaster: Redbird, Metropolis
Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

DavecUK Said:

The increase in energy usage is small, but the earlier point was to dispel the myth that it's more economical and that in some way espresso machines defy the laws of physics

Posted May 22, 2011 link

I don't recall anyone disagreeing with you on this, in fact, your point was well proven many posts ago when several people admitted that they are "just plain willing to pay the higher energy bill for the convenience" or something similar.

I'm curious why you then felt the need to move on to preaching about how citizens of the UK are better stewards of the earth than US citizens.

I'm not being an ass, just wondering why that was brought up if your only point was to prove that leaving a machine on is less efficient/less safe. (Which it seems nobody has been arguing about, they are just willing to assume the costs and risk.)

-James

 
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CoffeeRoastersClub
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CoffeeRoastersClub
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Posted Sun May 22, 2011, 8:34pm
Subject: Re: Leave on at all times or turn off daily?????
 

crayonshinchan Said:

How dare you call us North Americans on this site "average."  I prefer to be labeled as an "extremist."

Posted May 22, 2011 link

You're just a ho hum extremist?  Everyone nowadays is an extremist.  How about "militant"; now theres something to talk about.

But seriously, this is directed to the OP:  So what the heck are you gonna do?  Keep it on, or turn it off?  

aaaaannnnnnnndddddddddd .... WHY?

Len

 
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