Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011, 4:24am Subject: Re: The Crossland CC1 Machine - CG Road Trip!! (Looking for a few good geeks)
Thanks to Eric, Hugh and Jon I am fortunate to have the opportunity to review with them the CC1 while it is in the north central area of North Carolina.
For me personally my interest in seeing and testing this machine is stimulated by the respect that I have for Bill Crossland, the creator of the CC1. I will never forget the unselfish kindness that he exhibited when I owned my GS3 Paddle. At that time he was no longer involved with La Marzocco but that did not deter his interest in offering his comments when asked. All of those that own or have owned a GS3 understand that his fingerprints are all over it and it continues to be a high demand item for the home barista. If he can create a GS3 then I am sure the CC1, as his first machine, is well designed and well thought out. Not sure if I can offer any suggestions to BIll that he has not already thought of but I am going to make sure that I return the kindness extended to me in the past. I look forward to future Crossland designed machines.
Do you really think that Bill wanted his machine made in China? I seriously doubt it but GEE was a way for him to get to market his machine. I am not a lover of buying from China either but with this espresso machine I am going to forget it.
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011, 9:11pm Subject: Re: The Crossland CC1 Machine - CG Road Trip!! (Looking for a few good geeks)
Leroy, I'm not part of the Road Trip, (I would have liked to, but as coincidence I bought one just before this was announced) and the forum members here are unpaid enthusiasts with an interest in "all things coffee". The entry of the CC1 to the market here in the US (I'm not sure what country "Lombard" is in) is a game changer in this price range, and the bottom line here is: can it meet the expectations of experienced users, because if it can do that...what a perfect entry machine for a beginner.
I deliberated for several weeks of what to buy when I needed a machine at work, I considered used machines (like an Oscar...which I had owned before) or a new machine in that price range. I decided to buy the CC1, regardless of what I had read about the "GEE", mostly because Bill C. knows more about machine design than likely anybody else here in the US. If it was a good enough platform for him to work his magic on, I suspect it will pan out, or he would have gone a different route.
As for "crazy claims" of comparison to a GS3...that was not the intention, I'm not planning on selling my GS3 to replace it at home and pocket the difference. My first order of understanding a new machine is to discover its strengths and weakness, so I know what to expect from it. As regards to temp stability, I'm able to make comparisons to my GS3, and thereby know how to use the CC1 to the best of its design limitations.
When the "Road Test" CC1 gets around to the participants, they too will compare it to what they have experience with, at least subjectively if not directly. In the realm of espresso making the machine itself is down on the list (if it meets minimum criteria) superseded by the grinder, coffee, and technique of the Barista. Hope you find the machine you are looking for, let us know what you decide on....we're not selling machines here in the forums (you can peruse the "reviews" section for buying advice for that), we're exchanging information and first hand experiences.
billc Senior Member Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 83 Location: Seattle, Washington Expertise: Professional
Espresso: CC1 - GS - GS3 - GB5 Grinder: Baratza - Mazzer-Marzocco Drip: My own Creation
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 6:25am Subject: Re: The Crossland CC1 Machine - CG Road Trip!! (Looking for a few good geeks)
At the risk of being non-politically correct, just a small point of clarification. The machine is made in Taiwan. Yes it is a Republic of China but I think you would not say this if you make a visit. Not sure if the people of Taiwan would consider themselves a part of China either (my opinion only).
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 7:07am Subject: Re: The Crossland CC1 Machine - CG Road Trip!! (Looking for a few good geeks)
There's nothing wrong even if it is being made in China in my opinion. How many things or appliances in our daily life that contain component parts being sourced from China? You will be surprised. Even the popular Iphones were assembled and many of its part were sourced in China and then sold in the States. So far I don't see anyone complains about their iphone being made in China. :-P We also can't be certain that the machines from Italy can come completely clean off China components or equipments that were used to manufacture the machine. ;-)
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 8:20am Subject: Re: The Crossland CC1 Machine - CG Road Trip!! (Looking for a few good geeks)
latte_da Said:
I am sorry, this is starting to sound a scam to me. You guys are to compare a sub-par $700.00 CCI espresso machine to a $6500.00 GS3 espresso machine. How desperate is the coffegeek.com to sell these CCI machines to it's members? Because now you are entered the realm of crazy talk. I do not want to read crazy talk about a CCI espresso machine I am thinking to buy. It seem like the road test review already has been written before the road trip start and the CCI machine is a winner. How can that be I do not know. I have did research about this CCI on my own time and I am no longer encourage to buy this machine even more now when I am reading crazy claims to compare the CCI to the GS3. What I discover is that the CCI is a Chinese machine called a GEE espresso machine in China but called a CCI machine in America. I do not want this Chinese espresso machine any longer because the review is already in before the road is tested. Which tells me it is a scam.
I was going to ignore this as inflammatory, but I figure, given the questions you've asked in your other two posts, you're probably just confused/unfamiliar with what CG folks are all about. You're coming from a DeLonghi machine and this is all pretty new to you.
Samuel really explained it well. The function of an espresso machine is quite simple. Unlike the grinder that technically actually makes the coffee what it is, the machine's ONLY function is to heat water to a specific temperature, hold it as steadily at that temperature as possible, and push it through the coffee at a specific pressure, as consistently as possible. That's it. Nothing more. In that regard, the grinder is the far more complicated machine.
Of course it's easier said than done. Making materials and parts that hold consistent accurate temperatures is a feat of engineering and requires a deep knowledge of thermodynamics, hydrodynamics, and materials analysis to really figure out how to do it right. And that's where things tend to go south. Worse, doing it with cheaply available parts and labor makes it much more challenging.
The aim (if Bill doesn't mind me speaking for him) was to provide a machine at a footprint and price point that would suit the average home user. That means building a machine that tries to keep a consistent accurate temperature using cheap, small components. It has a PID, it has a traditional boiler, and a group (that judging by the PF lug positions I presume may be a CMA/Astoria/Brasilia design group....but I could be wrong there, it may be coincidence.)
Now, why compare it to the likes of the GS/3 et al? Well, the number one reason the GS/3 comes up in comparison is because Bill Crossland had a huge hand in the design of the GS/3. So we're talking about comparisons about two different class machines designed at least in part by the same engineer. That's why the GS/3 comes up specifically. Why compare it to higher end machines in general? It wouldn't be much of a road test evaluation if it weren't to be pitted against machines of substantially higher caliber with known performance. The idea is to take a known "ideal" output, or near-ideal output. If the CC1 turns out to have similar levels of performance, that would indicate it's performing above its price bracket. If not, then it's just another consumer machine.
Yes, it's made in China (or as Bill accurately corrected, Taiwan...which a short look into the politics of the region over the last half century should indicate why that is an important distinction....and why the distinction isn't allowed in print anymore.) Labor is cheap there. I you don't like it, I can't blame you, and you're free to buy an Italian, Canadian, German, or American machine for at least double the price. Many of us here have done so :) It's not wrong to value 1st world labor....and it's certainly your right to act on that. Unfortunately, if you want a machine designed by Bill made in Italy....you're kind of stuck at that $6500 price bracket... but there's quite a few other good espresso engineers out there. But you're still looking at no less than $1000 elsewhere such as for a QuickMill Silvano which is the most easily made direct comparison to the CC1 (since both are "boiler and a half" type machines.) Yes, the CC1 is built into that Gee shell. That doesn't mean the internals are the same thing, and there's amble documentation around pointing to what is different. It's not uncommon for one machine to be build around an existing design. Dave built the Izzo Alex Duetto entirely around the existing Alex HX design. He used (more or less) the original shell, had to expand it out slightly, moved a little bit of this over here, a little of that over there, and crammed a second boiler and pre-heat HX into it. The end result is a DB that looks almost exactly like the original HX and re-uses a significant amount of internal design and componentry. That made the design time shorter, factory tooling easier, and ultimately made production more possible. Yes, that's a different machine class, but a fine example of re-using existing machine designs to build an entirely new machine.
Now, how can a comparison to high end machines be made? Simple. Remember what I said about all the machine has to do is maintain temp and pressure? Well it's theoretically possible that this machine, with its PID and traditional boiler, smaller footprint, and lower cost COULD be exactly as stable as a GS/3. It probably isn't...but that's what the road trip is intended to find out. It's theoretically possible. Well, then why would anyone buy a GS/3 if a CC1 can do what it does? It can't! What you're buying with a Giotto, Vivaldi, GS/3, FB/80, etc (as you move up the ladder) is CAPACITY and DURABILITY. Even if the CC1 could fulfill the miraculous fantasy of matching the consistency of a GS/3, it would not be able to match the capacity of it. Just as the GS/3 can't match the capacity of the FB/80. The GS/3 has much bigger boilers, bigger heaters, more robust components, all designed for continuous use. Up through something like an FB/80 designed for knocking out 60 drinks an hour 9 hours a day, 7 days a week. A GS/3 couldn't do that. Commercial hardware is all about capacity and duty cycle. To reliably work all day every day it needs to be overbuilt to a certain spec. Additionally to keep stable temperatures while pulling shot after shot, it requires a lot more to it, a lot more water, a lot more heating power, probably more thermal conductivity materials, etc. (I'm no engineer, these are just abstract concepts.)
The point is, it's entirely possible for a well built machine to be just as stable from one shot to the next as a high end machine. But it won't be able to do it without rest times to recover between shots, etc. And it won't do it all day every day without failure. There's more to the scale of equipment than just "more money means more performance", at some point you hit equals in performance and it becomes "more money means more speed, more reliability at high volume use, double mean-time between failure on part X" etc. The road trip is to see just HOW consistent the CC1 is compared to higher end gear, to see just how stable it is, etc. We can assume it probably won't quite keep up, but the idea is to see how close (or far) it gets.
You could hit a Faema Legend with a hammer and it'll still brew on without skipping. I wouldn't try that with a CC1 ;)
Since you're coming fresh off kitchen store pseudo espresso machines and are new around here, you may want to do quite a bit more reading before making gross accusations as to the intentions of the forum members or the reasons one type of comparison would or would not be made.
Further, other than perhaps advertising, CG has no affiliation with Crossland Coffee beyond a wide respect for Bill Crossland as a much above average espresso engineer, the fact that Bill is a fellow CG member, and an appreciation for what the CC1 has potential to bring to the early home user such as yourself.
Seems ironic that you're judging the road trip before it has even started... and based on a post from someone not even involved in the road trip. I think you're just running with posts in this thread and extrapolating far too much from them.
latte_da Said:
How desperate is the coffegeek.com to sell these CCI machines to it's members?
CG does not and has never sold equipment -- not since I've joined anyway (see profile to the left). You'll need to back this wild claim up with some hard evidence.
latte_da Said:
What grinder do you use when you test this machine on your road trip? If the machine tests out to be good I want to be able to reproduce those same result at home that your testers produce. Except one tester says he has a Mahlkönig K30 grinder which costs 2000 dollars. One tester says he has a Compak K10 grinder which costs 1300 dollars. Some one else has a Mazzer Major grinder which costs $1000.00 and so on.
Depends on what the participants have or have access to. Again, I think you're assuming too much from the posts here. Just because a few posters have titan grinders doesn't mean that all road testers will use the same grinders.
cappuccinoboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 793 Location: MILANO Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully... Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:21am Subject: Re: The Crossland CC1 Machine - CG Road Trip!! (Looking for a few good geeks)
billc Said:
At the risk of being non-politically correct, just a small point of clarification. The machine is made in Taiwan. Yes it is a Republic of China but I think you would not say this if you make a visit. Not sure if the people of Taiwan would consider themselves a part of China either (my opinion only).
Bill you should know that TAIWAN, R.O.C. stands for Taiwan, Republic of China and that Made in China has always meant Made in Taiwan, the other China boasts Made in P.R.C. (People's Republic of China), of course time changes, ciao, Pietro
TheMadTamper Said:
I was going to ignore this as inflammatory, but I figure, given the questions you've asked in your other two posts, you're probably just confused/unfamiliar with what CG folks are all about. You're coming from a DeLonghi machine and this is all pretty new to you.
Samuel really explained it well. The function of an espresso machine is quite simple. Unlike the grinder that technically actually makes the coffee what it is, the machine's ONLY function is to heat water to a specific temperature, hold it as steadily at that temperature as possible, and push it through the coffee at a specific pressure, as consistently as possible. That's it. Nothing more. In that regard, the grinder is the far more complicated machine.
Of course it's easier said than done............................. ...... f.
John excuse for late answer but I missed your specific post, yes that is the common mantra, but if you do not mind you are wrong, ask any engineer and you shall see that compared to an espresso machine the grinder is a very simple piece of equipment, sure it has to be machined correctly, use motor with correct rotational speed, use quality burrs precision machined and have a nice design, have a good doser for commercial enviroment or be grind on demand for best results : just plain mechanical and nothing magic, while the espresso machine is much more complex although basically it has "ONLY" one specific function....
TheMadTamper Said:
I ...........
The aim (if Bill doesn't mind me speaking for him) was to provide a machine at a footprint and price point that would suit the average home user. That means building a machine that tries to keep a consistent accurate temperature using cheap, small components. It has a PID, it has a traditional boiler, and a group (that judging by the PF lug positions I presume may be a CMA/Astoria/Brasilia design group....but I could be wrong there, it may be coincidence.) .................... .....................
John please note that CC1 is not the game changer that was announced in the thread "The Crossland Espresso machine project - potential game changer", , is the GEE machine that has been bettered functions wise with BC contribution and that carries his name for easier marketing (I suppose, because it has none of his proprietory features, and no one would probaly speak of it as GEE machine..), see what BC personally says : as posted Feb 21,2011 , 7.24am - Suject The Crosslang Espresso Machine Project - Potential Game Changer Hey fello CG's! Please forgive me for not responding in a timely manner. Mark brought this to my attention last week but have just now had time to get something out
Well here goes. I do not have great news for you on this project. Although the prototype has been working great, i have not found a definite market for this machine. I know there are some here and on HB who would purchase this machine but I am not confident that it would justify going into production. I have thought of producing smaller production runs but then the individual price would be too costly. I am in the process of rethinking this product and have a few ideas but am struggling on how to launch this product at a reasonable price. The project is far from dead just not immediate.
This past year I have been working on a few projects including the other machine I showed at the SCAA show. I hope to be selling in a month or so. I have had some delays getting the ETL safety listing but it looks to be forthcoming. This machine is an entry level machine but a pretty decent machine. Some of the features are below.
1 – Commercial size 58mm Portafilter basket 2 – 3 way Brew Valve 3 – PID temperature control 4 – 8mm O.D. Swivel Type Steam wand 5 – 500 mL Stainless steel Brew Boiler 6 – Separate steam block for steam 7 – LCD Display 8 – Programmable electronic pre-infusion 9 – Programmable shot times.
I hope to be better this year at communicating progress on projects and timing. I have struggled working alone and really miss being part of a team. There are still things to learn but I think I am over the hump and as long as I can keep up on the mortgage payments I think it can only get better.
Thanks for all of your support. I appreciate all of the kind words and comments.
Bill C
TheMadTamper Said:
..............
Now, why compare it to the likes of the GS/3 et al? Well, the number one reason the GS/3 comes up in comparison is because Bill Crossland had a huge hand in the design of the GS/3. So we're talking about comparisons about two different class machines designed at least in part by the same engineer. That's why the GS/3 comes up specifically. Why compare it to higher end machines in general? It wouldn't be much of a road test evaluation if it weren't to be pitted against machines of substantially higher caliber with known performance. The idea is to take a known "ideal" output, or near-ideal output. If the CC1 turns out to have similar levels of performance, that would indicate it's performing above its price bracket. If not, then it's just another consumer machine. ................... .
probably as BC says, CC1 is just a pretty decent entry level espresso machine. I do hope that BC can eventually can start production of his own "game changer" machine, having solved all technical problems John do not be unnecesserily hard on whoever is coming from just an household DeLonghi machine, people have to get started somehow....although I do not agreee with his judgement on CC1 beeing based on wrong assumptions, like yours anyway..... Ciao, Pietro
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