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It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
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espresso_drinker
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 51
Location: Austin, Texas
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011, 9:20pm
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

Bob_McBob Said:

What kind of coffee are you using?

Posted October 30, 2011 link

I'm using coffee from a local roaster named Cuvee Coffee.
The blend is called 'Espresso Medici' and is made for what I think has
to be one of the best coffee houses in Austin: Cafe Medici.
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Taranto
Senior Member


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 75
Location: Kennewick, WA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Mazzer Super Luigi
Drip: Bodum Chambord
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011, 9:50pm
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

FWIW...based off this thread I just adjusted my opv to 9bars. If I had to do it again it would take about 5min. I recorded it and will attempt to upload it to youtube or something soon.  General recap: open the rear access panel (2 torx screws, 2 phillips screws), remove the clamped nylo-braid hose (a hose clamp), remove the nylon clip off the opv (a small screwdriver or pliers can pop it off VERY easily), and loosen the hose fitting (loosen lowers discharge pressure, tighten increases). My fitting was threaded all the way on, fully tightened so I don't think it was calibrated to anything. About two rotations in the counter-clockwise gets to about 9 bar. It took me about 30min total but I disassembled my machine a little bit farther than I had to and I didn't know what the OPV looked like until I re-read this thread. Hope this helps.

-Greg
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espresso_drinker
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 51
Location: Austin, Texas
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011, 10:18pm
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

TheMadTamper Said:

I'd be curious if anyone has one with a correctly set OPV?  I believe Mark Prince's original pre-production preview made reference to
pressure issues as well on the hand-tuned prototype.  

Posted October 28, 2011 link

Well, I hope I will be able to find that out in a few days.  BrevilleUSA followed up with me from my initial phone calls about the OPV issue and
asked if I was yet able to hit the 9 bar, 30 second pull.  When I told him there was no combination of grind and tamp pressure I could combine
to do so, he asked if I would be interested in trying out a BDB that had be recalibrated.  

Now, I'm not an expert barista by any measure, but I do have a feel for the espresso that should result from the beans I'm using.  I've been
able to get the taste close with my BDB but haven't yet been able to get that trademark syrup texture.  I'm hoping this machine he's sending
will have the means to produce the taste + texture I'm looking to achieve (maybe I should have asked if he could ship an expert barista, too).

So I wait.  I've been able to procure a bottomless portafilter that should arrive around the same time as the recalibrated BDB machine and
my new bag of beans.  When I get the time, I'll try to do a side-by-side test of the machine I bought and the recalibrated machine.  When I can't
sleep because of caffeine overdose, I'll get a video posted.
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espresso_drinker
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 51
Location: Austin, Texas
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011, 10:41pm
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

Taranto Said:

FWIW...based off this thread I just adjusted my opv to 9bars. If I had to do it again it would take about 5min. I recorded it and will attempt to upload it to youtube or something soon.  General recap: open the rear access panel (2 torx screws, 2 phillips screws), remove the clamped nylo-braid hose (a hose clamp), remove the nylon clip off the opv (a small screwdriver or pliers can pop it off VERY easily), and loosen the hose fitting (loosen lowers discharge pressure, tighten increases). My fitting was threaded all the way on, fully tightened so I don't think it was calibrated to anything. About two rotations in the counter-clockwise gets to about 9 bar. It took me about 30min total but I disassembled my machine a little bit farther than I had to and I didn't know what the OPV looked like until I re-read this thread. Hope this helps.

Posted October 30, 2011 link

The OPV valve is adjustable, then?  That's good news for when my warranty expires.  Now that I'm
waiting for another machine, I'm sure there are a million things I would break/bend/loosen that would
cause disaster of epic proportions... espresso that smells and tastes like durian fruit, for example.  

But for those who are interested... I'm not sure what you're referring to when you write 'nylon clip?'  
Are you referring to the thing the red arrow is pointing to?  Also, when you loosen/tighten, are you
rotating the entire OPV on the axis shown by the blue line?

Or is the nylon clip the thing pointed to by the yellow arrow and the hose fitting is turned on the
axis shown by the green line?

espresso_drinker: sbdb3.JPG
(Click for larger image)
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TheMadTamper
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Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Posts: 1,246
Location: US
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Salvatore SES; Izzo Duetto...
Grinder: Compak K10 WBC, K8 Fresh,...
Drip: /Pod: Bunn MCP
Roaster: /Other: Blender - BlendTec...
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 8:46am
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

espresso_drinker Said:

Well, I hope I will be able to find that out in a few days.  BrevilleUSA followed up with me from my initial phone calls about the OPV issue and
asked if I was yet able to hit the 9 bar, 30 second pull.  When I told him there was no combination of grind and tamp pressure I could combine
to do so, he asked if I would be interested in trying out a BDB that had be recalibrated.  

Posted October 30, 2011 link

See, that's the kind of uninformed support that Breville DOESN'T need to be offering the type of customers buying this machine.  I'm glad they're offering another machine to try, of course, but to even ask the question about if you were able to hit a 9 bar pull as though you were supposed to do something to result in achieving 9 bars indicates their support people don't understand the hardware they're supporting.  Manipulating your grind to reduce pressure is something you would do on a poorly calibrated OPV or machine with no OPV.  If you had to do that they didn't need an OPV at all.  The whole point of the OPV is a LIMITER.  Flow can not exceed 9 bars at the group if the OPV is set to 9 bars.  Ever.  You can put the blind basket in it.  You can weld a steel plate onto the group screen.   No matter what, pressure at the group would not be over 9 bar....the additional 6 bars the pump could output would be shunted back to the reservoir.  

For an espresso normale where your grind would achieve a 9 bar pull anyway, little to no water would get shunted through the OPV.  The purpose of the OPV is so you can grind tighter and still only exert 9 bars of pressure on it, resulting in a slower extraction, a.k.a. a ristretto (or at least a tight normale.)

But if the OPV is calibrated to 9.0, and if the pressure gauge is reading the pressure AFTER the OPV as it should, the gauge should never inch beyond that 9.0 mark even with a backflush disk in.  Their support people being seemingly unaware of this...specifically when the OPV calibration should be at this point a known issue in the company that all their support personnel were briefed on is a troubling sign of how they're addressing the issue.  

Now, I'm not an expert barista by any measure, but I do have a feel for the espresso that should result from the beans I'm using.  I've been
able to get the taste close with my BDB but haven't yet been able to get that trademark syrup texture.  I'm hoping this machine he's sending
will have the means to produce the taste + texture I'm looking to achieve (maybe I should have asked if he could ship an expert barista, too).

Without watching the shot flow, I would guess that with a tight grind and too high a pressure, you're blowing channels in the puck and thus underextracting the puck...thus a low TDS/extraction, and the lack of the thick texture. The good news is that if you want to do a normale, you should still be able to get a proper 9 bar normale by grinding coarser/dosing lower even with a bad OPV setting.  For a normale, the grind would be "naturally" at 9 bar, and thus give the OPV little or no need to kick in even if it were set right.  However the higher pressure tighter shot of a ristretto (or ristretto-ish normale) would still produce a thicker mouthfeel.


Taranto Said:

FWIW...based off this thread I just adjusted my opv to 9bars. If I had to do it again it would take about 5min. I recorded it and will attempt to upload it to youtube or something soon.  General recap: open the rear access panel (2 torx screws, 2 phillips screws), remove the clamped nylo-braid hose (a hose clamp), remove the nylon clip off the opv (a small screwdriver or pliers can pop it off VERY easily), and loosen the hose fitting (loosen lowers discharge pressure, tighten increases). My fitting was threaded all the way on, fully tightened so I don't think it was calibrated to anything. About two rotations in the counter-clockwise gets to about 9 bar. It took me about 30min total but I disassembled my machine a little bit farther than I had to and I didn't know what the OPV looked like until I re-read this thread. Hope this helps.

Posted October 30, 2011 link

If you're right and it truly is adjustable, that's fantastic and you've likely saved a lot of people a lot of trouble (and probably saved Breville some expense and heartache they deserved for such a bungle... ;) )
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Taranto
Senior Member


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 75
Location: Kennewick, WA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Mazzer Super Luigi
Drip: Bodum Chambord
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 9:20am
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

The nylon clip I referred to is what the yellow arrow is pointing to. You loosen/tighten the fitting around the green axis. The nylo-braid hose is the reinforced plastic tubing with the reinforced braid internal to the hose. Hopes this helps. It was all really easy once I started and made my first adjustment. I made two adjustments because the first was down to 8 bar.
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RobertD
Senior Member
RobertD
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900XL "Dual...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: Bodum French Press
Roaster: Novo is local - yippee!
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 11:52am
Subject: Naked portafilter available "early 2012" for Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL
 

I asked Breville about availability of the naked portafilter, and Customer Support is clearly aware of the product demand and plans for delivery. I know that we've heard from the inside that this is coming (on coffeesnobs.com.au, as they have had the machine for a year), but I was pleased to hear that Customer Support is aware of it as well.  :)

--------e-mail from Breville Customer Service---------
"Thank you for the very detailed response and do understand the desire for a naked portafilter. We are looking to release one for the BES900XL early 2012, and can assure you that when it does become available, it will be made for purchase at BrevilleUSA.com under the accessories of the Dual Boiler BES900XL. As we get closer to release, price point and availability may become known. We will be posting on our GetSatisfaction page when it becomes available."
Breville Consumer Support
--------e-mail from Breville Customer Service---------
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Dr_Coffee_House
Senior Member
Dr_Coffee_House
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Brisbane
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Minnore III, BCF, DCM Others
Grinder: MaCap, BZ02, Vario,Eureka
Vac Pot: a few
Drip: one
Roaster: HT, KKTO and Antique French...
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 4:45pm
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

TheMadTamper Said:

If the gauge goes over 9 bar, ever, even with a blank backflush basket, there are only two possible explanations: The OPV is not set right, or the guage reading is taken from some point before the OPV, meaning it's entirely useless and for aesthetic only.  I suspect it's the OPV though.  The whole point of the OPV is a pressure LIMITER.  Meaning it prevents pressure from ever going over the set pressure.  The excess pressure is vented out a different pipe (err...hose...)  The Silvia V1 was famous for "no" OPV...it had a fixed valve OPV that was only a safety feature that popped at 13 bar or so.  

<Snip>

*Edit: I'm neither praising nor condemning the Breville, I haven't tried one, and I don't "have a pony in the race", I'm just offering advice and help to some of the questions here in a thread the bulk of members would have little to no interest in, and offering commentary on areas where I'd like to throw heavy objects at whatever management made certain decisions inside Breville ;)

Posted October 28, 2011 link

A great post TheMadTamper and I am sure that many will be thankful.

I for one, am pleased that you have seen and been able to get access and the time; to help clear the air.

After questing some of the "so called statements and issues found at the release and shortly after" on CS; and copping significant flack...  There is plenty to be also read on the Crema Forum as it is not a Commercial site, unlike CS.

What amazes me that the units into teh USA suffered teh same miss adjustment, I doubt a faulty OPV as some suggested; just not adjusted correctly.  Further more some interesting statements from company staff.  At no stage have they come out an stated that there is a batch issue re the setting of the OPV.  What they are fond of saying is "If you believe your OPV is incorrectly adjusted; please call the service centre"...

It will be interesting to see what happens in the USA and CA :-)

PS. The basket with the hole, is calibrated for flow and to produce a known backpreasure.

With the Sunbeam ones, the user double floor basket has a special hole of 0.6mm with a twist.

The Service and QC use a special that has a hole of  0.45mm as it is set for use and calibration when using water.  The 0.6 for the users is to cater for a coffee based fluid and thus slightly different viscosity.

PPS.  Keep the great posts coming, as per "Re: Breville Dual Boiler Espresso Machine"  a market killer at the prices being obtained by some here in Australia.

 
Bling does not make coffee.... Get over it.
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 513
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 5:08pm
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

So, can we conclude that Breville has mis-calibrated the OPVs on these machines by using a defective manufacturing process? It appears they have, as they tried to calibrate with a Scace II involved, without thinking about the fact that the Scace II acts as a valve itself, permitting a certain amount of flow that's meant to mimic a proper pull. Effectively, they're calibrating the Scace II instead of the OPV.

One might easily surmise that Breville is counting on the fact that the right combination of grind, dose, and tamp will bring the operational pressure down to the acceptable range, but that seems to ignore the reasons that people value a well-functioning OPV,

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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jscd88
Senior Member


Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Location: East Coast
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 6:27pm
Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
 

Taranto Said:

FWIW...based off this thread I just adjusted my opv to 9bars. If I had to do it again it would take about 5min. I recorded it and will attempt to upload it to youtube or something soon.  General recap: open the rear access panel (2 torx screws, 2 phillips screws), remove the clamped nylo-braid hose (a hose clamp), remove the nylon clip off the opv (a small screwdriver or pliers can pop it off VERY easily), and loosen the hose fitting (loosen lowers discharge pressure, tighten increases). My fitting was threaded all the way on, fully tightened so I don't think it was calibrated to anything. About two rotations in the counter-clockwise gets to about 9 bar. It took me about 30min total but I disassembled my machine a little bit farther than I had to and I didn't know what the OPV looked like until I re-read this thread. Hope this helps.

-Greg

Posted October 30, 2011 link

Good news as mine needs adjustment also. Easy enough to remove the 4 screws, but my back panel isn't popping off. Did you remove the upper panel that runs the width of the machine or the lower panel on the left? If so, how?

Jim
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