Intrepid510 Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2010 Posts: 305 Location: California Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Dec 14, 2011, 1:11pm Subject: Re: The ZP Machines "Nocturn" - New low-cost, high-promises machine
SteveRhinehart Said:
I can't agree that they're useless, as impressions are impressions - they aren't commands, they're evaluations, observations. Jason is a well-respected individual in the coffee world, and only just recently resigned from the Barista Guild of America. His thoughts aren't pulled from the aether, they're informed by his own experience, his discussion with the two fellows who designed the machine, and their expectations and design considerations. Jason was actually pretty clear that his post was based not on performance, but on possibility. True, the idea of a $300 machine with good performance and PID control is not something to sniff at, but there will need to be real-world results before people clamber to open their wallets. Again, a more hands-on review will take place in a few weeks, to verify some of their claims.
Reticence is certainly valuable in this discussion though, as you're right, there isn't concrete data to go off of yet. I certainly haven't (wouldn't) recommended to anyone that they should fund the project or pre-order the machine on faith and prospect alone.
Perhaps I am more skeptical than you are, but it just seems rather pointless to have a prototype that doesn't use the very thing (thermoblock) that is suppose to regulate brew temp and steaming! How can they even know their design is going to work if they don't have a working model to show someone like jason that has a lot of contacts with people and at the very least would lead people like us to back their company on kickstart.
I hope this thing works out, but my BS dectector is raising.
Posted Wed Dec 14, 2011, 2:09pm Subject: Re: The ZP Machines "Nocturn" - New low-cost, high-promises machine
Intrepid510 Said:
Perhaps I am more skeptical than you are, but it just seems rather pointless to have a prototype that doesn't use the very thing (thermoblock) that is suppose to regulate brew temp and steaming!
Actually, that's a point I'm definitely with you on. Not having the final product, or even the functional equivalent of it, on hand when you're trying to secure funding is dubious. Granted, it's totally understandable in this case, as they're two guys with a presumably tiny production budget. Making claims is something anybody with a business plan has to do, as they're lost without strategic goals. But when it comes time to say "here's our plan, would you like to fund us?", most investors would prefer to respond "Sure, show us a working model!" Still, I suppose that's what will happen when Jason gets to test one in a few weeks, though it is well past the initial investment goal has been met. Moral of the story: Kickstarter is a hell of a way to fund a project, even without proof!
Intrepid510 Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2010 Posts: 305 Location: California Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Dec 14, 2011, 2:54pm Subject: Re: The ZP Machines "Nocturn" - New low-cost, high-promises machine
SteveRhinehart Said:
Actually, that's a point I'm definitely with you on. Not having the final product, or even the functional equivalent of it, on hand when you're trying to secure funding is dubious. Granted, it's totally understandable in this case, as they're two guys with a presumably tiny production budget. Making claims is something anybody with a business plan has to do, as they're lost without strategic goals. But when it comes time to say "here's our plan, would you like to fund us?", most investors would prefer to respond "Sure, show us a working model!" Still, I suppose that's what will happen when Jason gets to test one in a few weeks, though it is well past the initial investment goal has been met. Moral of the story: Kickstarter is a hell of a way to fund a project, even without proof!
Yeah I just find it dubious they don't have a working model to show people, given you can probably have paid someone to mill you your thermoblock. I also think the two hundred price point is low even for those back them now, I would assume that amount would cover costs of your machine and then leave a bit left over for funding. Those over the shelf parts are not too cheap especially the pump, even if bought in large amounts, which they must not be able to yet.
I feel like that gizmondo guy, intrigued, but willing to let other take the risk and have the reward if this thing works out.
Posted Wed Dec 14, 2011, 3:23pm Subject: Re: The ZP Machines "Nocturn" - New low-cost, high-promises machine
Heh, yes, I'm willing to let other folks act as guinea pigs on this one!
In other new, Jason Dominy followed up on his earlier post, addressing the skepticism surrounding his statements. Basically, he's withholding judgment too, and was only commenting on what was actually provided to him in terms of a machine, the thermoblock-via-Skype, and what he was told by the creators.
Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012, 9:22pm Subject: Re: The ZP Machines "Nocturn" - New low-cost, high-promises machine
Alright, looks like the ZPM guys had a successful testing session with Jason Dominy at B&B. They're apparently still waiting for a Scace II to test with, so these tests were carried out with a thermocouple in a bed of coffee, I believe, but the results look fairly promising. Jason posted some information and his thoughts, along with a couple of videos on his blog. The ZPM fellows also posted a Kickstarter update with basically the same stuff, but they included a graph of the temp curve (with no temp units?) as well. Since this is still the bench model, with the thermoblock hilariously mounted off the side of the machine, I'd still wait to see the production tests and data before dropping those Silvia pennies on this machine. $350 though, not a bad starting price point if it can deliver.
Also, gotta love the Coffee Kids charity auction! *See Jason's piece
ampguy Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Posts: 119 Location: Pac NW Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012, 10:18pm Subject: Re: The ZP Machines "Nocturn" - New low-cost, high-promises machine
one thing is that with the group isolated like that, the temps will be different than when the parts are more tightly integrated. Depending on the materials, bonding, and distances, the temps will change when the grouphead is attached, and measurement is on say the 5th shot in 5 minutes.
Not sure a scace will show much until the machine is assembled, and with the 1000W heating element.
Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012, 11:39pm Subject: Re: The ZP Machines "Nocturn" - New low-cost, high-promises machine
From the blog, "Our ultimate goal is to get it down to a 2C drop over the course of the shot". So that's a 4F drop. Isn't that a huge temperature drop?
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