Posted Sat Jan 7, 2012, 1:14pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
Just to give you guys a heads up: I am currently playing with the CC1 for the road test. I don't know what people said about thermoblock, but the thermoblock-enhanced steaming thingy on this CC1, is a damn super microfoam beast!!Sorry, really can't help it! LOL! It's really that amazing!
It makes microfoam so well that the microfoam is no longer microfoam, rather, it actually feels like liquid! What I thought was good microfoam on Cremina, actually is a light year behind the microfoam made by this CC1. The microfoam from Cremina felt creamy and there wasn't any visible micro-bubbles, and I thought that was the real real. But apparently, on this CC1, the microfoam actually feels like liquid that flows and sticks in your mouth. I don't know how Bill nailed it, but it's totally amazing! I can't even replicate the microfoam result on my Cremina even after going back at it for so many attempts. A truly wake up call by the CC1.
For those of you who were contemplating Silvano or Oscar or Cuadra vs CC1, and if you makes milk-based drink most of the time, the CC1 is a no brainer. Coming from a ex-Gaggia Carezza user with modded Silvia wand, and a Cremina user with 1.1litter boiler for steaming, I am totally impressed. It could have been my techniques, but my first ever and following attempts on CC1, had all been the best microfoam I've ever made. You could have spend hundreds of gallons of milk on other machines and never actually make true microfoam (like my case). The integrated PID might have been the main selling point of CC1, but the steaming capability I think, is the best feature on the CC1 that truly knocks my socks off.
You're right, that basically covers everything I've said. REALLY good microfoam I must add. hahaha!It is even more silkier than the one I've gotten from good cafes. Seriously though, my skill must have been really terrible. I never knew microfoam could be THAT micro. It's almost a sin to call it microfoam.
It might not have been that impressive to those with good steamers. But for a home machine under 1k, I don't think there's any machine that could beat it in the ease of creating that liquid foam. It's really that easy, even for a lousy barista like me!
Pardon me if I've gone too excited. I was just totally impressed and had to find somewhere to share that. ;P
espressoJim Senior Member Joined: 2 Feb 2012 Posts: 1 Location: Salt Lake City Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012, 12:46pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
samuellaw178 Said:
For those of you who were contemplating Silvano or Oscar or Cuadra vs CC1, and if you makes milk-based drink most of the time, the CC1 is a no brainer.
Have you tried the other machines listed? Was the Silvano the 1000w thermoblock? I am considering a thermoblock machine so would like to know. The CC1 and Silvano are top on my list right now.
Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012, 1:28pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
espressoJim Said:
Have you tried the other machines listed? Was the Silvano the 1000w thermoblock? I am considering a thermoblock machine so would like to know. The CC1 and Silvano are top on my list right now.
Unfortunately, I did not have a Silvano so I can't compare that with. The CC1 steams a little slower in my opinion and the steam is a little wet. But the result is worth dying for. Even until now, I couldn't recreate the microfoam at that level with my Cremina that has 1.2L boiler, pressurestat set to 1.1bar, with different steam wands and hole numbers. It's probably my technique problem but CC1 is super easy to steam on, from day 1. Unless you like more airy microfoam, then CC1 will lose that edge. I wouldn't worry about the steam power, it's just that it takes a little longer to steam, which probably could explain the excellent and easily achievable result.
Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012, 1:36pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
samuellaw178 Said:
You're right, that basically covers everything I've said. REALLY good microfoam I must add. hahaha!It is even more silkier than the one I've gotten from good cafes. Seriously though, my skill must have been really terrible. I never knew microfoam could be THAT micro. It's almost a sin to call it microfoam.
It might not have been that impressive to those with good steamers. But for a home machine under 1k, I don't think there's any machine that could beat it in the ease of creating that liquid foam. It's really that easy, even for a lousy barista like me!
Pardon me if I've gone too excited. I was just totally impressed and had to find somewhere to share that. ;P
Even Gail from SCG can make fabulous microfoam and latte art with the CC1! She's "latte-art" challenged on most other machines but the CC1 and the BDB are the two machines where she excels. So that makes me wonder...which machine is tops when it comes to microfoam - the BDB or CC1?
Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012, 1:44pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
hotwasabipeas Said:
Even Gail from SCG can make fabulous microfoam and latte art with the CC1! She's "latte-art" challenged on most other machines but the CC1 and the BDB are the two machines where she excels. So that makes me wonder...which machine is tops when it comes to microfoam - the BDB or CC1?
I wondered about that too. But I suspect both of them would be very close if CC1 is not better.
But one thing that I really must emphasize is that, there are many 'levels' of microfoams, if you wish. The microfoam that has no visible bubble at all and that can pour picture-perfect latte art, could be deceiving on the appearance. The difference is day and night when you take a sip. I have always thought my microfoam was the way it was supposed to be, until I tried the one from CC1. A truly well done microfoam, really do stay unseparated for a really really LONG time. I've always thought that was a hyperbole, that good microfoam stay incorporated until the last sip, but it's not very far from the truth!
GlennT Senior Member Joined: 13 Feb 2012 Posts: 38 Location: SF Bay Area (Silicon Valley) Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Kraps Il Primo Steam Wanabe... Grinder: Baratza Priciso Drip: Aeropress & "Don't ask don't...
Posted Thu Mar 29, 2012, 12:57am Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
I'm surprised at the dearth of reviews. CG does not have any that I can find.
In some ways, I'm Mark's mirror with a degree in mechanical engineering and a career that focused on the business side of tech (sales, marketing, customer/field/process service & spares and some operations management). Between some of the comments in this thread and the manual, I'm simultaneously fascinated and left with several questions.
CONTROLLING TEMPERATURE WITH REDUCED THERMAL MASS
billc Said:
Then I asked myself why was there so much mass on the group head of the current designs. The group head acts as a thermal mass once heated and helps keep the water temperature stable. Then I thought, if the mass was not there I would not have to heat it and I would not have to wait so long for the machine to heat up. Once I removed the mass I had another problem of controlling temperature. How I do this is pretty simple in theory but has proved to be somewhat challenging with software (mostly the mathematics). Once I was able to control temperature, and with the mass removed, I realized that I was able to vary the temperature of the water and it was noticed quickly at the coffee.
My time selling industrial automation equipment taught me that analog signal processing in general is expensive and prone to errors. Even worse, temp sensors are notoriously slow. High thermal mass gives sensors time to process the delta T signal to switch on the heaters. To maintain temperature with a low thermal mass, the sensors must detect the temp change and turn on the heater before the temp changes too much; in other words, the system requires very fast response times.
===
As a "game changer" product, the CC1 has the potential to bring excellent-quality espresso to a MUCH larger market than the classic coffee geek/perfectionist market. A different (much larger) target market requires a less intimidating product. The clean front panel & control screens along with the small size really help make the machine seem more approachable. Think of spouse or parent use...
QUESTIONS/ISSUES FROM THE MANUAL click here
Well, most engineers HATE writing manuals & product documentation while most marketing guys love to complain about inadequate manuals...
The schematic shows a 3-way valve, and a blank portafilter gasket comes with the machine. Unfortunately, the manual says NOTHING about back flushing as part of their recommended maintenance regime.
What are their back flushing recommendations?
If I owned the machine, I would never use the pod selection for pods. If I could figure out a way to automate the back flush sequence, I would gladly exchange my pod choice for a backflush program choice! H-B recommends clear water flushing every few shots or at least once a day after use http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machine-cleaning.html. An automated backflush hack is way more valuable than a pod program choice.
While screen removal for cleaning seems pretty obvious to a lot of geeks, many consumers would find it intimidating, particularly when the manual does not specify tools required. To the extent back flushing can replace removal & soaking, consumers are more likely to keep the parts clean. Because it has a substantial impact on coffee flavor, cleaning protocols must be as simple as possible. Why doesn't anybody offer some kind of tool-free screen removal solution to make cleaning easier?
The manual never mentions running an empty shot through the PF to heat it. Given the inherent temp control challenges with low thermal mass, the PF winds up being a significant mass to heat.
If the machine allows "tuning" of P I & D, it better have a "return to factory default" function because users are guaranteed to get the temp control totally unstable.
Combined with Baratza's grinders, this really could be a "game changer" that offers a substantial value proposition that brings high quality espresso beyond its small niche. To the tune "I Was Country When Country Wasn't Cool": "I did espresso When espresso wasn't coooool"
cappuccinoboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 789 Location: MILANO Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully... Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Thu Mar 29, 2012, 2:35pm Subject: Re: The Crossland Espresso Machine Project - potential game changer
I'm surprised at the dearth of reviews. CG does not have any that I can find.
In some ways, I'm Mark's mirror with a degree in mechanical engineering and a career that focused on the business side of tech (sales, marketing, customer/field/process service & spares and some operations management). Between some of the comments in this thread and the manual, I'm simultaneously fascinated and left with several questions.
CONTROLLING TEMPERATURE WITH REDUCED THERMAL MASS
My time selling industrial automation equipment taught me that analog signal processing in general is expensive and prone to errors. Even worse, temp sensors are notoriously slow. High thermal mass gives sensors time to process the delta T signal to switch on the heaters. To maintain temperature with a low thermal mass, the sensors must detect the temp change and turn on the heater before the temp changes too much; in other words, the system requires very fast response times.
===
As a "game changer" product, the CC1 has the potential to bring excellent-quality espresso to a MUCH larger market than the classic coffee geek/perfectionist market. A different (much larger) target market requires a less intimidating product. The clean front panel & control screens along with the small size really help make the machine seem more approachable. Think of spouse or parent use...
Combined with Baratza's grinders, this really could be a "game changer" that offers a substantial value proposition that brings high quality espresso beyond its small niche. To the tune "I Was Country When Country Wasn't Cool": "I did espresso When espresso wasn't coooool" Dear friend you are off track : the game changer was a fascinating project, and prototype, where Bill would bring innovation based on :CONTROLLING TEMPERATURE WITH REDUCED THERMAL MASS, but as far as I understand the machine production was never started because Bill was afraid it could be appealing just to a few in the coffee geek community, never gaining market recognition that would justify industrial production, and the project is still there.... CC1 is just an informed upgrade by Bill of a somewhat promising machine by a new comer in the market, namely a Taiwanese manufacturer who clearly had very little experience, and in a way is still a traditional machine, even though Bill has surely contributed in making it much better. So please do not mix the two projects, since "CONTROLLING TEMPERATURE WITH REDUCED THERMAL MASS" refers to the game changer project machine Also a pod option is a great plus, you do not have to use, but if you like the convenience why not ?? And for automated back flush you can always go superauto... Screen removal is normally had with a simple (or phillips) screw driver (maybe very short handle type), after first time you find it very easy to perform and the PF thermal mass is normlly taken care by leaving the same PF inserted....and PID's already give temperature reading with possibility of increasing+, decreasing - in a limited range and going back to minimum set when you go above say 105°, but PID is not for the mass, rather for the skilled demanding CG and honestly cannot see "users guaranteeed to get temp control totally unstable" Espresso has been cool for a long time, happy to know that you too discovered it, Ciao, Pietro
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 