ccolton Senior Member Joined: 23 Jan 2012 Posts: 132 Location: Wilmington DE Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bezzera BZ07 Grinder: Le 'lit PL53
Posted Mon Jan 23, 2012, 3:17pm Subject: new member becoming more confused by the day
Hi,
I have been lurking on coffeegeek for a while and the more I read the more I realize how complicated the topic of espresso machines is. As background, I did not drink coffee until age 35 when my friend - native Italian - forced me into drinking a latte. I haven't looked back although now I prefer a much stronger latte; i.e., a lot less milk. I drink one to two coffees a day and have been through 4 inexpensive machines: 3 Krups and one delonghi. The delonghi is a recent purchase and I find the drinks now have an after taste that's bad enough for me to stop using it.
So, i began looking for a better machine and thought I might have to pay as much as $300! Hah! Keep dreaming, right!
Since I live in Wilmington DE, and can visit 1st line, i have been actively speaking with Diane there and she has been great. So, it's no surprise that my list is comprised primarily of 1st line machine offerings
I am currently looking at a wide range of machines and prices and could definitely use some advice - I will try to make my questions objective.
The list: Le lit PID - not available until April. Le lit non-pid available now and about $120 cheaper. Bricoletta Volante Rocket Cellini Evoluzione Salvatore lever - I love the overbuild and the 6-year coverage
grinders: Le lit PL 53 or Salvatore is I go that route.
Do I really need the Pid or should I pocket the savings if I go with a cheaper Le lit?
Is the "hand Built" Slavatore really going to outlast the Bric? It sure seems better built.
how important is the massive pressure stat used by Salvatore?
Do I really need the option for plumbing - I doubt I will ever make more than 6-8 drinks at one time.
When reading reviews, I see that the Lelit gets very good scores - but are they objective. For example, if I were to buy one and the drinks were significantly better than what I am used to, I would give it great ratings. However, with no experience using a top machine, my rating would be less valuable than that of someone with greater experience. Put another way, are the HX machines really worth it and are reviews of less expensive machines made by people like myself with limited experience and therefore biased?
Thanks, I know this is a little confused - but so am I!
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Mon Jan 23, 2012, 3:29pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day
I wish you asked sooner in the day. I have 5 minutes to answer you.
Get a better grinder, it is grinder grinder grinder here, the machine is an accessory to the grinder. do you see a theme?
HX machines are in a different world than SBDU and plumb in makes life SOOOOOO MUCH NICER, no it is not about the shear volume of your drinks rather more about ease of use and convience.
It sounds like you are liking caps more than Lattes and that is good, soon with good espresso you will be liking straight shots too.
First line is a great dealer and if you can go in and play with the machines, so much the better. The espresso from a SBDU can be good but it takes a whole lot more work with them to overcome the limitations of them.
Look at the precico or vario as a minimum. Salvatore is a great machine but so is Rocket. Most machines live much longer than the gaurantee.
I am out of time, have a great search and you will get lots of opinions.
Wayne
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,464 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Mon Jan 23, 2012, 3:32pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day
Chris, If you can afford it, HX is a much better way to go IF you're into milk drinks, as well as espresso shots. There is no wait time to steam, in fact most HX machines allow concurrent steaming and shot pull.
Salvatore has MANY fans, especially due to their warranty.
Bricoletta is a direct connect (no reservoir) machine, that according to 1st Line needs a 20amp receptacle.
Tell 1st Line your needs/requirements/usage pattern, and hopefully they'll fix you up with the right machine. Looks count too, so don't forget that.
I'll also consider a Baratza Preciso with Esatto attachment or Vario grinder among your choices. I'm not familiar with the Salvatore grinder. The Lelit (I've read) grinds pretty well, but is a bit noisy.
Around here, the GRINDER is always the primary "get." Don't be afraid to ask questions of your vendor.
Also, several other vendors ship at no charge, so there's that option as well.
Continue the research, and remember that it's YOUR usage pattern that matters.
Posted Mon Jan 23, 2012, 3:37pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day
The PID isn't necessary on the Le'lit. the boiler is directly above the group and big enough where temp stability is rarely an issue. Unless you plan on becoming a serious home barista I would say your best bet is the Pl041 Le'lit, and the Lelit grinder.
I cant see any reason to spend over $1k on a machine that most home users wont utilize to nearly half their potential.
If you are making latte's and cappuccinos you may want to look into heat exchange/dual-boilers for the convenience of steaming and pulling at the same time. The Ascaso duo, and the bezzera are two inexpensive options. However, I make at least 3 latte's/cappuccinos a day for friends and myself on my Le'lit and I can safely say that the time lag from brewing to steaming is insufficient to make me want to upgrade.
Your grinder choice is far more important than the machine at this point as you read these forums you will quickly learn that a $3k machine will pull like crap without a solid grinder to back it up. I use an ascaso I1-D with pretty excellent results... for home use anyway. You will be amazed at the difference small adjustments on these stepless grinders can make in the cup.
In terms of grinders I would say the Lelit is probably fine, but if you want a more professional set up go for a mazzer, or the salvator.
Dont forget a tamper! a baristas main tool. for the Le'lit machine its a 57mm piston, I find a flat tamper is best for my methodology, but Im not swearing against concave tampers.
Best of luck,
Anthony C
Currently pulling: -espresso- Social Coffee Co. (Ontario, Canada): -Peoples Liberation -Peoples Daily -El Socorro Palo Blanco Espresso
ccolton Senior Member Joined: 23 Jan 2012 Posts: 132 Location: Wilmington DE Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bezzera BZ07 Grinder: Le 'lit PL53
Posted Mon Jan 23, 2012, 3:48pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day
Wow! You guys are fast! Thanks for the comments and the encouragement. Yes, I would love to get an HX machine and may go that way. In the long run, I will likely be better off - at least that's what I have read.
I am planning to visit 1st line Thursday and will have a lot of questions!
ccolton Senior Member Joined: 23 Jan 2012 Posts: 132 Location: Wilmington DE Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bezzera BZ07 Grinder: Le 'lit PL53
Posted Mon Jan 23, 2012, 3:57pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day
Dear Angryamygdala,
Thank you! I have also waited for the steam and it has not been a problem for me. Really, as long as I can get a good espresso drink - two a day with about an hour between - i will be very happy.
Here's a confession - I use Starbucks's espresso beans and like them. I wonder if that is bad?!
I like the idea of saving money - I just don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish!
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Mon Jan 23, 2012, 5:05pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day
chris liking starbucks beans is not a hang your head in shame thing but there is much much much better to be had in the espresso world than stale over roasted beans.
however I have a feeling that you will soon tire of that 1 note flavor and you will quickly move away from that inferior product and to fresh high quality beans that were properly roasted.
there are roughly 2 kinds of beginner buyers. there are the ones that want to spend as little as possible and there are ones that want to spend as little as possible overall and though they spend more up front they spend less later when the upgrade bug bites those who bought less expensivly the first time.
as you already have confessed to liking milk drinks a lot we generally advise those people to start looking toward HX machines as those machines are much better suited to milk drinks then single or dual use machines are.
there is no shame in liking milk based drinks I have them very often myself but my equipment allows me to easily choose whether I want a milk based drink or straight shots with the same ease of use for either drink and no wait for either.
the sbdu you machine really shows it's weakness when you have company over and it takes you have an hour to make 3 drinks and because it take so long to make the drinks nobody gets to share the time together drinking them.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
ccolton Senior Member Joined: 23 Jan 2012 Posts: 132 Location: Wilmington DE Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bezzera BZ07 Grinder: Le 'lit PL53
Posted Mon Jan 23, 2012, 6:40pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day
Dear CalBlacksmith,
You make a good point about spending wisely - that's one reason that I have looked at the Salvatore lever machine. I think it will last a very long time.
I also agree that, given my experience with non-HX machines, making drinks for guests is just not worth it. As you say, the first one is finished before i even get to begin my own. having said that, i really don't make that many coffees for guests - maybe we drink too much wine? Anyway, my wife doesn't appreciate good coffee so I don't even make drinks for her.
And as a sidenote - those HX machines are really beautiful. I admit that that is an attraction for me. I think the Cellini, from the pictures I have seen, is stunning.
I will be at a conference all day tomorrow and will not be able to check back until Wednesday.
Thank you and everyone for the responses - they are a big help.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Tue Jan 24, 2012, 6:35am Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day
Only you can decide what your needs are and what the budget is that works for you. If you are into wine, think on this, there are more flavor compounds in coffee than there are in wine and if you can discern the differences in wine, how much more will you be able to tell the differences in coffee?
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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