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Espresso: Espresso Machines
new member becoming more confused by the day

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ccolton
Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Wilmington DE
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera BZ07
Grinder: Le 'lit PL53

Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012, 4:54pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

Ah, yes, I misspoke - 5 days to peak. But the 5-day thing is important! All in good fun - as you already know, I don't have a clue! But I am having a lot of fun and you guys have all made this a great time. Thanks, Chris

MikeReilly
Senior Member

Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 277
Location: Vancouver Island
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali Junior D, Gaggia...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Drip: Cuisinart
Roaster: Behmor, I-Roast 2, Popper

Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012, 10:22pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

Glad to hear it's all starting to work out. I've been doing this for a few years now and I still learn stuff all the time. Wife thinks I'm insane, but she enjoys the morning cappuccinos.

emradguy
Senior Member

Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 1,693
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II
Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,...
Drip: Espro press; Aeropress
Roaster: internet

Posted Sat Feb 4, 2012, 10:13am Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

ccolton Said: Ah, yes, I misspoke - 5 days to peak. But the 5-day thing is important! All in good fun - as you already know, I don't have a clue! But I am having a lot of fun and you guys have all made this a great time. Posted February 3, 2012 link I beg to differ! It think you do have a clue...and yeah, I understand the domestic issue, btw :) When you start talking about dose weights, micro-adjusting group temp, measuring shot timing, rules of 15, etc with your spouse...that's when she starts thinking you're crazy! I keep most of this stuff to myself, so all she knows is...I'm really into my espresso setup...lol

CoffeeGeeks don't let their friends go to *$$

ccolton
Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Wilmington DE
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera BZ07
Grinder: Le 'lit PL53

Posted Sun Feb 5, 2012, 9:34am Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

HI Mike, Thanks. Yes, my wife is beginning to like cappaccinos too, and, yes, she thinks this whole thing is ridiculous. But, it suits me. I like to build furniture in my spare time and I mostly use hand tools for the finer components; e.g., final milling of wood, hancut dovetails and mortise and tenon joints. Very similar to trying to make a good espresso - at some point, Ill get it and that will be great. In the meantime, still trying to rid myself of the bad aftertaste - maybe when I get my FRESH beans! Chris

ccolton
Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Wilmington DE
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera BZ07
Grinder: Le 'lit PL53

Posted Sun Feb 5, 2012, 9:38am Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

Hi emradguy, First, thank you for your compliment. Maybe one day I will actually know something about this art of espresso making and live up to your kind words. Secondly, good advice about the wife. I haven't gone into too much detail with her...well, from now on I won't anyway! Fresh decaf beans arrive this week. Looking forward to steady hands again. Chris

drgary
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 126
Location: San Francisco
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Amica Coffex Lady Duchessa...
Grinder: Pharos, Rio Super Jolly,...
Vac Pot: AeroPress
Drip: Melitta & filter paper...
Roaster: Heat Gun/Bread Machine

Posted Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:04am
Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

ccolton Said:

In the meantime, still trying to rid myself of the bad aftertaste - maybe when I get my FRESH beans!

Posted February 5, 2012 link

Hi Chris,

Maybe it's the beans, maybe not. Which beans are you using, and can you describe the "bad aftertaste"?

Gary

ccolton
Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Wilmington DE
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera BZ07
Grinder: Le 'lit PL53

Posted Sun Feb 5, 2012, 2:11pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

HI Gary, I appreciate the continued support. I have been reading the articles you and others recommended. My problem is this; although I have a sensitive palate, I do not have an educated one. So, I can taste the lingering flavor, but will not be able to describe it well. It's not a burnt flavor. I believe it is bitter, not sour. Based upon the definitions I am familiar with, that's the taste. Of course, I cannot really think about coffee in terms of lemons, so maybe I am wrong. Anyway, my mouth does not want to pucker up with this after-taste. Further, I will say that my shots are typically only 15-20 seconds, despite , what I think, is a very fine grind. I get a lot of crema and the inital taste is good, but after swallowing, and waiting a few seconds, there's an unpleasant after-taste. I would also note, that despite filling the portafilter to the top, overflowing sometimes, and weighing 17-20 grams, I do not reach the line. Maybe too much pressure? Jim's dark beans mixed half/half with Trader Joe's decaf Italian Roast - I just could not take the caffeine anymore! Well, any feedback is appreciated! Thanks again. Chris

Posted Sun Feb 5, 2012, 3:29pm Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

Chris: Quick guesses here. Usually bitter is too hot or it's an acidity in oily dark-roasted beans or cheap and skunky robusta varietal in a blend (not all robusta is bad. Some espresso blends may have a little in there to add mouthfeel, crema and sweetness). It can also be staleness. Or it could be underextraction, kind of a thinly bitter flavor at the end of the pull. First thing, ditch the Trader Joe's. Don't drink the fully caffeinated result. Just taste it using Jim's beans only and spit it out, like in wine tasting. The TJ's may be stale, it may have a bitter defect in the blend, who knows? Don't buy supermarket coffee. You just can't count on quality or freshness. A way to quickly test whether it's the TJ's is pull a shot of TJ's only. Is it bitter? Does it run fast? Pull a shot of Jim's beans only? Bitter? Run fast? Also if you think the grind is very fine but your pulls are too quick, it may not be fine enough or the TJ's coffee may be stale. Have you ground fine enough to choke the machine and then backed off of that? The Le'Lit grinder is capable of that, and it's often a way to get your grinder dialed into your blend and machine. Another consideration is coffees brew and grind at different temperatures and coarseness. You'll generally want to brew lighter roasts hotter than darker ones. Unless you find a decaf and caffeinated that brew very similarly, just stick to decaf for now. Maybe when buying from one of the top roasters you can ask them for recommendations on which of their blends to combine as caf and decaf. Gary

ccolton
Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Wilmington DE
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera BZ07
Grinder: Le 'lit PL53

Posted Sun Feb 5, 2012, 6:10pm
Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

drgary Said:

Quick guesses here. Usually bitter is too hot or it's an acidity in oily dark-roasted beans or cheap and skunky robusta varietal in a blend (not all robusta is bad. Some espresso blends may have a little in there to add mouthfeel, crema and sweetness). It can also be staleness. Or it could be underextraction, kind of a thinly bitter flavor at the end of the pull.

Posted February 5, 2012 link

I have been concerned about the impact of underextraction - and the beans from TJ's are not the best, I think. With luck, I will have good, fresh decaf beans this week.

drgary Said:

First thing, ditch the Trader Joe's. Don't drink the fully caffeinated result. Just taste it using Jim's beans only and spit it out, like in wine tasting. The TJ's may be stale, it may have a bitter defect in the blend, who knows? Don't buy supermarket coffee. You just can't count on quality or freshness.

Posted February 5, 2012 link

Okay. I can take some caffeine - it's just that with the new machine, I have been drinking way more than I usually do :).

drgary Said:

A way to quickly test whether it's the TJ's is pull a shot of TJ's only. Is it bitter? Does it run fast? Pull a shot of Jim's beans only? Bitter? Run fast?

Posted February 5, 2012 link

Good advice - scientific method is always the right path for a chemistry project.

drgary Said:

Also if you think the grind is very fine but your pulls are too quick, it may not be fine enough or the TJ's coffee may be stale. Have you ground fine enough to choke the machine and then backed off of that? The Le'Lit grinder is capable of that, and it's often a way to get your grinder dialed into your blend and machine.

Posted February 5, 2012 link

Not really - I didn't know where to start so I have been pulling shots, with different coffees, and re-dialing. I think I will need to creat a baseline for the Le 'lit and a chart +/- if I use more than one coffee. Tomorrow, I will dial it down and make a few test runs.

drgary Said:

Another consideration is coffees brew and grind at different temperatures and coarseness. You'll generally want to brew lighter roasts hotter than darker ones. Unless you find a decaf and caffeinated that brew very similarly, just stick to decaf for now. Maybe when buying from one of the top roasters you can ask them for recommendations on which of their blends to combine as caf and decaf.

Posted February 5, 2012 link

Yes, I took your advice, and others, and ordered Counter Culture's decaf. I like the idea of mixing so I will need to get advice from them about the coffees they produce and which work well together. I had not thought about that at all. In the past, I have just mixed *$ decaf and regular. Also, I admit that you and others have had an influence on me; I really like Jim's lighter roast and will definitely keep tryingnew coffees. I checked and we have several local roasters (Philadelphia) that I plan to try.

Thanks again. I'll report back tomorrow.

Chris

ccolton
Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Wilmington DE
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera BZ07
Grinder: Le 'lit PL53

Posted Mon Feb 6, 2012, 7:09am Subject: Re: new member becoming more confused by the day

Good Morning, Gary and all! Well, extracting espresso this morning taught me quite a lot including the fact that I don't know a lot! First, removed the TJ's/Jim's mix and loaded just Jim dark. Turned the dial back 5x on the grinder and extracted espresso. Took about 75 seconds for 1 oz. 1 rotation off and extracted another espresso. Crema much richer than I had been seeing, extraction took 40 seconds for 1 1/2 oz. It actually tasted sweet! Made a cappuccino with this, drank 1/2 and barely any after-taste. At one point - it was early and I canot tell you exactly what I did - I actually tasted a very sour shot. So, I am sure now that the after-taste I have been experiencing is bitter. I then kept the same setting and used the decaf/Jim mix. Deep, dark and rich crema. Looks awesome coming out of the bottomless portafilter! Still has an after-taste, but not as bad. So, although the problem is not solved, your advice has really helped me get going in the right direction. I think the TJ's coffee is terrible and needs to go. I still need to check the temerature of the grouphead so I can quantify that variable. Bottom line, based upon your suggestions, Gary, I am doing way better than I was. Thank you. I am tempted to drive into Philly today to get some fresh decaf - very busy today, but who knows! Thanks again. Chris

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