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Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Upgrading from...  
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 513
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:29pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

Jon, on what possible basis could you judge "performance" in an espresso machine but the quality of the beverage?

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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JonR10
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JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:30pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

BubbaDude Said:

The closest definition to 1960s espresso machines would be last one.....

Posted February 11, 2012 link

In your opinion.  
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't make it a universal truth.



BubbaDude Said:

Jon, on what possible basis could you judge "performance" in an espresso machine but the quality of the beverage?

Posted February 11, 2012 link

Engineers tend to quote things like temp stabiliy, pressure and flow adjustment, and other non-taste-related scientifical stuff.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 513
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:32pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.

We could also go with 9, traditional or typical: a classic comedy routine.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:39pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

BubbaDude Said:

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts..

Posted February 11, 2012 link

dude.  If you're an engineer, you should be able to distinguish the difference between a fact and an opinion.  

Fact : "Classic" has many possible definitions
Opinion : a personal judgement about which one applies


And it has clearly been demonstrated here in this thread that different people have different opinions
None are universal truth or "facts", they are ALL opinions.  Yours are no more more (or less) valid than anyone else's.  
. (period)

I'm done here now.  
Please feel free to start talking about espresso again.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 513
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:43pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

The noun definitions may be more appropriate:

12. an author or a literary work of the first rank, especially one of demonstrably enduring quality.
13. an author or literary work of ancient Greece or Rome.
14. classics, the literature and languages of ancient Greece and Rome (often preceded by the ).
15. an artist or artistic production considered a standard.
16. a work that is honored as definitive in its field: His handbook on mushrooms is a classic.
17. something noteworthy of its kind and worth remembering: His reply was a classic.
18. an article, as of clothing, unchanging in style: Her suit was a simple classic.
19. a typical or traditional event, especially one that is considered to be highly prestigious or the most important of its kind: The World Series is the fall classic of baseball.
20. Archaic . a classicist.

Numbers 17 and 18 apply.

Personally, I learned the difference between fact and opinion (AKA knowledge and belief) from Plato. Knowledge is not simply a matter of sense data, there is interpretation and analysis involved as well. That's how we make predictions, and hence, progress.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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jwsnyder919
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Joined: 28 Jun 2011
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Espresso: QM Andreja Premium
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Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 11:15pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

The e61 is dead.  Long live the e61.

I fear if Freire read this thread he would have re-thought his theories on knowledge generation and believed man incapable of anything besides entrenching his own beliefs.  Get over yourselves.  

There's plenty of room for us all; those who like classic (and yes, I mean to use this term) fit and finish and old-tech that is designed well but are weary of new things until they're more tried and true as well as others who want to try something new for hopes it might help us reimagine what we know.  Me, I'll take the Emeco or Eames chair over a la-z-boy.  But this begs the question: who the hell cares? To each their own and to try to impose your thoughts so vehemently is to demean the spirit of these discussions.
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JtothaR
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JtothaR
Joined: 20 Dec 2010
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Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Espresso: Faema D92/A1 Smart
Grinder: B VARIO, Krups Conic
Drip: Manual Pour-Over, Bodum...
Roaster: Redbird, Metropolis
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 11:23pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

BubbaDude Said:

Jon, on what possible basis could you judge "performance" in an espresso machine but the quality of the beverage?

Posted February 11, 2012 link

Jon, the above statement is much more amusing than the one about wide spread panic.

By this logic, every time a Racing driver loses, his car was performing badly. Winning races is not a measure of a car's performance. Horsepower and Torque figures, Power to weight ratio, Lateral grip, etc. have zero bearing on the ability of the driver to pilot the car properly.

In the same way, If you are an inexperienced barista, It doesn't matter the standard to which your machine performs. The machine doesn't prepare the espresso, you do. There's a local cafe that serves burnt bitter shots all day every day on a La Marzocco GB/5. Does that by association mean that the GB/5 is an inferior piece of equipment? Does a burnt steak mean that the stove performed badly?


Not to mention the obvious fact that the quality of the beverage is subjective....      <------- Make no mistake Richard, this is a fact.

Very funny when an engineer bases his measure of performance on a factor that can't be quantified.


-James

 
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Stuart
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Joined: 9 Feb 2012
Posts: 113
Location: TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Roaster: Air Crazy popper
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 11:44pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

Odd. I used to spend a lot of time reading "audiophile" magazines. There was one that would describe the technical details of a bit of kit, then move quickly on to "how does it sound". There was another that would comb through the technical details almost to the exclusion of subjective analysis of sound quality. They even had a grand old time splitting hairs over wheat "subjective" evaluation v. "objective" evaluation was, in listening tests.

The engineering details are important. I'm too new around here to be sure no one has investigated this already, but I've read a bit about overly bright flavors when portafilter baskets have just been cleaned, or when more stainless steel than usual is in the coffee flow path. Stainless steel is "stainless" because of some interesting molecular properties of the alloy. Before putting stainless into use for manufacturing materials sensitive to metal ions, many industries "passivate" the stainless by exposing it to acid (nitric or citric). This dissolves the reactive ferrous ions at the surface, leaving mostly chromium at the surface. I read about "seasoning" shots and wonder if that's what people are doing (perhaps without knowing it -- dissolving out the surface iron, leaving behind a less reactive surface).

Sometimes there's a connection between an engineering detail and a subjective-evaluation detail. If you go read fora where people are waxing rhapsodic about the class of machines that permit pressure profiling, you might get the impression that too much temperature stability and pressure stability is a bad thing. Maybe it is -- but stable temperature and pressure are an improvement over random variations.

E61 machines achieve temperature stability one way. The BDB does it another way. When I get a BDB, I'm going to wonder whether all that stainless in the boilers has reactive iron exposed, and if that's contributing to the taste.  (Probably, after a couple of boilersful of anything but distilled or RO water, the question is moot. Probably.)
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 513
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sun Feb 12, 2012, 12:06am
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

JtothaR Said:

Not to mention the obvious fact that the quality of the beverage is subjective....      <------- Make no mistake Richard, this is a fact.

Very funny when an engineer bases his measure of performance on a factor that can't be quantified.

Posted February 11, 2012 link

It's a fact alright, but it's an irrelevant one in ths context because my subjectivity is a constant in an equation that includes many variables. In order for me to achieve the result that I want on my tongue, I need a machine that transparently delivers the flavors in my roast, shot after shot. What I don't want is a machine that introduces randomness. The interaction is between me and my beans, and the role of my roaster, my grinder, my tamper, my water, and my espresso machine is to do what they're told, as well as the best technology that fits my budget enables them to do.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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saoye1
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saoye1
Joined: 4 Feb 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Australia
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto Premium/Lelit...
Grinder: Bezzera Obel DSQ modified
Posted Sun Feb 12, 2012, 1:00am
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

Bubbadude, I don't understand why the inability to accept criticism for the BDB?  Surely you don't think the BDB is the epiphany of all espresso machine in existence?  It is a very new machine with some very smart technology no doubt.  I read back on all your posts and not once did you actually give pros and cons between any of the machines other than give the BDB a shining review.  There was no mention of the pros or cons of the Giotto or any other classic other than the fact that they are just brand hype and snob mentality.  Personally I have given my opinion on all and believe there are pros and cons on both sides.  Why the inability to accept that there may be doubt to the longevity of this machine?
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