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Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,766
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Feb 8, 2012, 9:43am
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

YEEUUUP!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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HTDAVE
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Joined: 5 Jan 2012
Posts: 16
Location: los angeles
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: La Spaziale vivaldi II...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Vac Pot: none
Drip: none
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 8:49am
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

Breville?  chinese cheapie!!

Where to go for SERVICE on breville?   That is an unknown.

Look here and to amazon for some reviews.
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Stuart
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Joined: 9 Feb 2012
Posts: 113
Location: TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Roaster: Air Crazy popper
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 11:32am
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

I am upgrading from a 15-year-old Krups steam toy and was also drawn to the Rocket and the Breville Dual.

Leaving aside the question of the Breville's reliability for a moment, since no one can possibly know how it will last:

The Rocket (Giotto or Cellini) is a beautiful HX machine with an E61 grouphead, lots of shiny metal, and a solid reputation. It's also 1960s technology. _Proven_ 1960s technology, mind, but there's little on the Rocket that wasn't available on commercial machines fifty years ago.

The Breville is (IMO) also beautiful. It has design features better compared with the latest and greatest high-end specialty machines (GS3, anyone?). It also has several consumer-friendly features.

As a hobbyist, I think I'd prefer the Rocket. But the need to learn how to love an HX machine -- to temperature surf in a manner not completely unlike that required for a SBDU machine to get the right temperature -- worries me a little. It worries my wife a lot: she's not a hobbyist. She'd like to "walk up and pull a shot," and I get the feeling that's not going to happen with the Rocket.

There are features in the Breville's design that appeal to the technogeek in me. PID controlled electronic brewhead temperature control compared with circulating a piddling amount of water (via thermosiphon, not even positive displacement) through 4kg of brass? Neat. Stainless steel instead of plated brass? Neat. Volumetric dosing? Neat. (And if you want to manually operate it, there's a button for that.)

There are a lot more things to break on the Dual. The Rocket is a simpler machine, perhaps requiring more art to operate. That appeals to the hobbyist in me.

But for me, the consumer-friendly features of the Breville are probably going to win out, and I'll revel in the technological features that set it apart from most sub-$6,000 machines.


Is anyone but yourself likely to want to operate the machine?
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Kor
Senior Member


Joined: 6 May 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Canada

Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 4:24pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

I recently upgraded from Silvia to Breville.  

Breville is the FAR superior machine in every way and I have absolutely very few problems with it - the only downside at ALL to me is some of the construction is plastic.  Will the machine last 10 years?  I honestly don't give a damn, I will want a new machine before that, and if you can't afford to buy a new machine twice a decade maybe this is the wrong hobby for you.    

I would forget everything you hear from people who are just trying to justify that they own a different machine or ignorant comments about china.  It's a very well built and well designed machine that performs amazingly, blowing away machines until almost 2x the price at over 2K and is built to work well and stand up in a "pro home kitchen".

Shot for shot it destroys the Silvia and I think you will be OK with the Rocky for a while, you will notice a dramatic improvement in convenience, consistency of shot, quality of shot even with the Rocky - I now have a Vario but have used the Rocky and it's pretty good.
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

1961, the year that the E61 group used in the Giotto was invented, was a very interesting year for technology milestones. It featured the first live televised press conference by a US president (JFK), the first live-action Technicolor musical (Babes in Toyland by Disney,) the first American chimp in space (Ham,) the first human to orbit the Earth (USSR's Yuri Gagarin,) the first American in space (Alan Shepherd,) the foundation of modern genetics (Heinrich Matthaei,) and the formation of Ireland's first TV station. Culturally, it witnessed the inauguration of JFK, the first public performance by The Beatles, the beginning of the Freedom Rides, the official beginning of the Vietnam War, the construction of the Berlin Wall, Castro's declaration of Marxism-Leninism, and Roger Maris' 61 home run season. Of course, we've come a long way since then.

I like my Breville. I've take it apart to adjust the OPV and approve of the build quality inside and out. It's not as shiny and nobby as some espresso machines, but the convenience and control factors are impressive. It's nice to have constant brew temperature without surfing at the temp you select,  it's great to have a built-in shot timer and pressure gauge, it's marvelous to have the ability to steam and brew at the time, adding water is a dream, and there's even a light shining through the water in the little window where you can see the level. I don't think anyone who can afford it will be disappointed.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,766
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 6:05pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

As i said there are people here who like their bdb.

More power to you. how happy are you going to be with the disposible,  build to a price point,  jam questionable dodads on it to make a buck on newbes who are thrilled wirh flashing lights machine,  in three years when it needs repair and breville tells you to buy a new one?

There is a darn good reason that 1961tech is still going strong and still respected. It is that it works and works well. In fact, it has taken 51 years to come up with something that works ALMOST as well but is more limited in adjustability and that you cant do proper maintance on.

I will say though, I really like the volumetric dosing i have on my plumb in, HX machine, no PID  or filling the water tank required!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

calblacksmith Said:

how happy are you going to be with the disposible,  build to a price point,  jam questionable dodads on it to make a buck on newbes who are thrilled wirh flashing lights machine,  in three years when it needs repair and breville tells you to buy a new one?

Posted February 9, 2012 link

I don't see a problem with building to a price point. I'm certainly not doing to buy a GS/3 or a Speedster because they're priced without any regard for anyone's budget, and as far as I can tell the GS/3 needs several hundred dollars worth of maintenance a year. It's certainly the case that HX's are built to a price point because they sacrifice electronics for shiny chrome skins. Price point is good.

Are there any "questionable dodads" on the BDB? I suppose you could be talking about the magnetic tamper that stores out of the way when not in use, but it's not annoying. I don't consider the shot timer, the auto-on, the programmable volumetric dosing control, the brew temp control, or the pressure gauge "dodads," but there is a hidden storage tray that some might find objectionable. It's probably not much of a selling point. The "dodads" are good, although the volumetric is misguided. I'd rather control dose by weight myself, and I do.

Is the machine disposable? It is in the sense that you can dispose of it quite quickly by way of sale if you want, but not in the sense that you mean. It has many fewer moving parts than an HX, is free of toxic brass, and will, by my estimate, last as long as any espresso machine on the market as long as it's well maintained. But it's new, so you could be right. I could win the lottery today as well.

So we will see what we will see and nobody knows until they know.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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dsblv
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Bellevue, WA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto Evoluzione
Grinder: MACAP MC4
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

Well, E-61 machines and PID'd machines like the BDB both use boiler technology that goes back over 170 years.  Does that make all machines obsolete due to the age of their boiler technology?  

The age of the E-61 group design is irrelevant.  Good design is good design.  The E-61 group is well matched to the HX style machine and PIDing a double boiler is a good approach for a double boiler like the Breville.

Each type of machine can be judged on its own merits.  For those who feel their machine is superior to others, I recommend looking up the meaning of "cognitive dissonance".
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

I took a social psych class in college that covered cognitive dissonance, so I don't need to look it up. The theory says that a person who's forced to hold contradictory beliefs will suffer a reduction in motivation.

Boiled water is old, coffee is old, water is old, and electricity is older still, dating from the big bang. That's not really the point, as it's the means of controlling these things that matters to coffee geeks. I don't see the relevance of CD to this, but I can see some hive mind effects.

The subject of reliability came up in the first look thread, and it came out that the people who were touting E61 reliability were actually saying that it's easy to buy the replacement parts to cover the frequent failures of the siphon circuit and pressure stat. That's a very unique way of understanding it to say the least.

(added on edit)

As to which design is superior (today's electronics-heavy DB or yesterday's HX) I think the way to look at it is like this:

1) Have espresso machine design engineers learned anything in the last 50 years?

2) Do espresso machine design engineers have better components to work with today than they had ten years before the advent of the microprocessor?

If the answer to both questions is not "yes" something's wrong.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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saoye1
Senior Member
saoye1
Joined: 4 Feb 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Australia
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto Premium/Lelit...
Grinder: Bezzera Obel DSQ modified
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:01pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

I have the ECM Giotto premium which is the model before Rocket took over the ECM factory in Milan.  I know this machine will outlast me mechanically.  Electronically I may have to replace some bits and pieces here and there but have yet to experience that.  I think the strong point about these machines is the fact that I can pull the entire thing apart and rebuild it again with components and even upgrade internal components such as a thermostability modification that allows for the E61 grouphead to pull a shot without a cooling flush or a very minor flush.  I also know that because of this fact and it's made from Quality components it will probably outlast me and maybe even my kid.  That's a nice thought.

The BDB is made in China...but so what most other things are.  It looks nice, feels solid enough and has a lot of extra flashing lights that the Giotto does not have.  In terms of user friendliness I think BDB is ahead of Giotto.  On the Giotto it does rely somewhat on the user's skill and understanding of the mechanisms of the machine, but I love that I know the ins and outs of my Giotto.  It really is a BMW vs a Lexus type scenario.  there's nothing wrong with the Lexus.  It has a lot more features, bells and whistles than a BMW for a lower price and it's a very nice luxury car but at the end of the day it is still a Toyota.  (Sorry to those who have a grudge against BMW but loves the Giotto for this analogy but you get my point)

Personally I think you'll be happy with either.  I know of some people who crazily sold their HX Italian machines to jump on the BDB band wagon at the model release.  If you put both machines side by side I think you'll get more oohs and aahs from the Giotto, even though it is a simpler machine.  It just looks like art.
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