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Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Upgrading from...  
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Metatron
Senior Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 67
Location: Calgary, Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: BDB900
Grinder: Vario
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

BubbaDude Said:

So that's the feature set. I don't know which of these you'll find on a non-electronic HX like the Giotto since I don't have one, but it's obviously a smaller list. On the con side, the Breville doesn't have a fancy nameplate, but perhaps the after market can supply one that says "Brevilia" or something else that sounds Italian and imparts snob appeal.

Posted February 11, 2012 link

There are a several other features of note.

Auto Turn Off: The machine will automatically shut off. You don't have to remember to turn it off. This is really good for me as I travel a lot. I don't have to worry if I shut it off when I am on an airplane half way to Europe and will not be home for a week.

Simple Self Cleaning Cycle: Pop in the porta-filter, back flush disk and a cleaning tablet, put a pot under the group to catch the water, press a button and walk away. Done in 5 minutes.

Plastic Frame: Plastic has many advantages. It is light and doesn't rust. If you go to the trouble of making a proper mold, you can get a structure which is much better and lighter than the equivalent metal one. For all the features in the BDB, the unit weighs only 30 lbs or so which is much lighter than other similar DB or even HX machines. You won't get a hernia moving it around on your own. Although the term "plasticy" implies cheap, shoddy construction, in this case I don't think it is the case. Using plastic here is smarter. And, the cost will be lower.

Water Tank And Filling: There was an enormous amount of thought that went into the water tank and filling system. You can easily see the level at all times. You don't really need an alarm. I don't think you even need to consider plumbing it in. If you want to clean underneath the machine, just move it to one side and scrub away and move it back. No need to worry about breaking filler hoses which would be the case if it were plumbed in. I turn it on in the morning and, if it needs water, pull the hose out from the sink and fill it up. 30 seconds tops. No cups to move, lids to take off or containers to remove and put back. Painless!

Descaling: There is much controversy about descaling on this machine. Breville claims that the use of the built in water filters will reduce or eliminate the requirements for descaling every few months. They have done testing to verify this. I tend to believe them. They have put a lot of thought into this machine. I don't think they would have skipped this. And, I suspect that it will be easy to descale if required. Time will tell, but I am not losing any sleep over it. I just change the filter every 1.5 - 2 months.

Breville Support

I have read numerous threads on this machine as well as the Breville Smart Grinder. Breville seems to be providing good support so far. People with a malfunctioning OPV seem to be able to easily get that fixed. There are a few cases of leaky gauges which have also been dealt with. People with faulty Smart Grinders seem to be able to exchange them easily. A quick email will get you the shim kit by mail. Phil is on the forums helping people out where needed. Most of the questions now seem to be about espresso technique rather than machine faults.

I have bought 5 flat panel TV's in the last 10 years. None were cheapies - most were top of the line. I never got any reasonable customer support from the manufactures. My current two are on their last legs with faults which are well documented on the support forums. The other three are in a landfill somewhere due to documented problems on forums like this one. I only wish that Sony, Panasonic and Toshiba had similar customer support as Breville appears to have now.

I read a thread on Vibiemme Double Boiler owners having to wedge pieces of felt in strategic places to keep the machine from rattling. Haven't seen any BDB problems like this. And this is on a $3000 machine which weighs 80 lbs, most of which is stainless steel.

I think Breville has done one hell of a job designing, building and bringing this machine to market. They also seem to be making a valiant attempt at supporting it. I would hope that this community can give them the benefit of the doubt and not berate them unfairly. It is machines like this that will move the state of the art forward where all of us will benefit.
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saoye1
Senior Member
saoye1
Joined: 4 Feb 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Australia
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto Premium/Lelit...
Grinder: Bezzera Obel DSQ modified
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 4:05pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

Guys (and gals), I think we're all getting a little emotional.  I think Ben picked out the emotions and got the main message and others have already corrected where he erred in terminology (temp surfing and cooling flush).  I'm not sure where he got "Faster to make a espresso+milk drink" on the bdb though.  I would add more high-tech to his list of pros for the bdb.

To turn around and say that machines like the Giotto (ECM has been around for 40 years making these machines) and while we're at it other classics of similar build lets even go the Bezzera (the father of modern day espresso) are lesser machines because of the lack of technology and call it a branding/marketing effort I have to say is bordering on being ridiculous.  Breville was never in the market to compete with these machines but to create a new market altogether which is slotted between the domestic appliance and the prosumer.  This in itself is a branding/marketing effort.  I don't see the old classics trying to prove themselves because they just have to be around for you to know that there is no contention about their quality and build.  
Bubbadude, calling classic lovers snobs is probably heading in the right direction.  I don't think any of us try to deny we are perfectionists or "snobs" for that matter when it comes to coffee.

No one has denied the technology or price of the BDB.  So far I've only heard a debate about longevity and reliability.  These are not stemmed from unfounded fear or hype but from past history of previous models.  You just have to look around in the Market and go back 10, 20 even 100 years and you can still find machines like Bezzera originals in operational condition.
Breville has to prove themselves and they have improved with every model and so far the BDB sits on top, but again I am not sure if that (a machine that will last lifetimes) is the market that they are looking to get into.  They are still very much a home appliance focused market.
I have absolutely nothing against Breville, they are an Australian company and I am Australian and proud of this companies achievements.  Like I said, I have several appliances of my own that is Breville and have not had much issues at all.  Would I recommend a BDB as a good machine?  YES depending on who's asking and what they want out of the machine.  It's not for everybody just like the classics aren't either.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,734
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 4:37pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

Regardless of all the " positive" above, the fact remains it is a disposible consumer appliance. if you are OK with that, fine but it is NOT a prosumer machine and it never will be.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 5:13pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

saoye1 Said:

To turn around and say that machines like the Giotto (ECM has been around for 40 years making these machines) and while we're at it other classics of similar build lets even go the Bezzera (the father of modern day espresso) are lesser machines because of the lack of technology and call it a branding/marketing effort I have to say is bordering on being ridiculous.

Posted February 11, 2012 link

I'm an engineer, so I don't value "classic-ness." To me the things that matter are objective factors such as price, performance, and reliability. I find that it's almost always easier to achieve these goals today than it was in the past, but I'd make an exception for pyramids, I suppose.

Anyhow, I don't think the rationale for this thread is to establish who made the best classic espresso maker 20 years ago, it's to provide shoppers of today with good, solid, objective information to guide their purchasing decisions right now in 2012.  That's what the feature lists are for, and nobody should feel threatened by this kind of information.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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chasemonster
Senior Member
chasemonster
Joined: 3 Jun 2010
Posts: 364
Location: Chicago
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rancilio Audrey
Grinder: Hario Mini Mill
Drip: V60
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

BubbaDude Said:

I don't think the rationale for this thread is to establish who made the best classic espresso maker 20 years ago, it's to provide shoppers of today with good, solid, objective information to guide their purchasing decisions right now in 2012.  That's what the feature lists are for, and nobody should feel threatened by this kind of information.

Posted February 11, 2012 link



Threatened is putting it mildly.  
I would go so far as to say that ever since the Breville Dual Boiler was introduced, the self-proclaimed 'experts' on this site (and you know who you are) have been conducting themselves in a high state of WIDE-SPREAD PANIC!!
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 9:11pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

BubbaDude Said:

I'm an engineer, so I don't value "classic-ness."

Posted February 11, 2012 link

I'm a lifetime engineer and I often value "classic-ness", depending on the situation.  

So again, it's just a matter of different preferences for different people and this holds true, even for engineers.  I value other things (along with spec sheet data), namely cup quality above all.  Spec sheets don't tell the whole story, taste comes first for me.  

But as an engineer I also highly value things such as elegance and simplicity of design, robust build quality, and serviceability.


chasemonster Said:

Threatened is putting it mildly.  
I would go so far as to say that ever since the Breville Dual Boiler was introduced, the self-proclaimed 'experts' on this site (and you know who you are) have been conducting themselves in a high state of WIDE-SPREAD PANIC!!

Posted February 11, 2012 link

Laughable.  Thanks for the levity....gave me a real chuckle.


The BDB is a huge step forward for Breville and the quality in the cup is the best of any Breville Machine I've ever tried.  There is no question that BDB will apeal to many users and enthusiasts, and I expect it will capture a nice slice of the market. And since different things appeal to different people, there will be different offerings in the market that will also be successful.  

As I said before, I'm looking forward to the RT test (if it happens).

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:00pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

JonR10 Said:

So again, it's just a matter of different preferences for different people and this holds true, even for engineers.  I value other things (along with spec sheet data), namely cup quality above all.  Spec sheets don't tell the whole story, taste comes first for me.

Posted February 11, 2012 link

That comes under the category of "performance," the second of three three criteria I listed in my post: price (I should have said "cost",) performance, and reliability. Once we focus on these essential factors, we can put aside extraneous subjectivities such as "standing the test of time," "feel," and "classic-ness" that are actually nothing more than anti-progress biases.

Engineering is everywhere in our world, some of it good, bold, and progressive, and some it lazy, complacent, and mediocre.

JonR10 Said:

Laughable.  Thanks for the levity....gave me a real chuckle.

Posted February 11, 2012 link

When we read posts calling the BDB a "disposible" [sic] item, "threatened" has an empirical foundation, so I wouldn't be so haughty.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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frcn
Senior Member
frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,394
Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
Grinder: Mazzer Kony, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:14pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

CLASSIC
a : serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value <classic literary works>
b : traditional, enduring <classic designs>

Classic is a standard of excellence that stands the test of time.... And that's a bad thing? Not to me.  Up until now, Breville's espresso machines have not met that definition in any of their espresso machines.

 
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:25pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

From Dictionary.com.

classic, adjective:
  1. of the first or highest quality, class, or rank: a classic piece of work.
  2. serving as a standard, model, or guide: the classic method of teaching arithmetic.
  3. of or pertaining to Greek and Roman antiquity, especially with reference to literature and art.
  4. modeled upon or imitating the style or thought of ancient Greece and Rome: The 17th and 18th centuries were obsessed with classic ideals.
  5. of or adhering to an established set of artistic or scientific standards or methods: a classic example of mid-Victorian architecture.
  6. basic; fundamental: the classic rules of warfare.
  7. of enduring interest, quality, or style: a classic design; classic clothes.
  8. of literary or historical renown: the classic haunts of famous writers.
  9. traditional or typical: a classic comedy routine.
  10. definitive: the classic reference work on ornithology.
  11. of or pertaining to automobiles distinguished by elegant styling, outstanding engineering, and fine workmanship that were built between about 1925 and 1948.

The closest definition to 1960s espresso machines would be last one, which we can modify for his context as: "of or pertaining to espresso machines distinguished by elegant styling, outstanding engineering, fine workmanship, heavy copper boilers, and food-grade stainless steel panels that were built from the 1960s into the 21st century."

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:26pm
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler
 

BubbaDude Said:

That comes under the category of "performance," the second of three three criteria I listed in my post:

Posted February 11, 2012 link

Hmmm....maybe the word "taste" could find it's way in there somewhere since "performance" is not explicit about taste.  


BubbaDude Said:

When we read posts calling the BDB a "disposible" [sic] item, "threatened" has an empirical foundation, so I wouldn't be so haughty.

Posted February 11, 2012 link

When we read posts indicating "WIDE-SPREAD PANIC!!" it is indeed laughable.  
If you look very carefully, you will find that I wasn't referring to your words at all when I chuckled.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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